Episode 98
The Truth About Strength, Trauma and Resilience | James Elliott
What does real strength actually look like?
In this episode, I sit down with psychotherapist and resilience coach James Elliott for a conversation about resilience, trauma, identity, emotional control, and the lessons he took from his time in the military.
James brings both lived experience and professional expertise to these topics, which makes this a very grounded conversation. We talk about how many people misunderstand strength, why resilience is about more than just enduring pain, and how childhood experiences and learned behaviours shape the way we respond to life.
We also explore why James joined the military, what that environment gave him, what it taught him to unlearn, and how self-awareness can help us challenge old patterns and respond differently under pressure.
We cover:
→ What strength really is
→ Why resilience is more than just surviving hard things
→ Why James joined the military
→ What the military taught him about fitness, pressure, and decisiveness
→ Identity, labels, and mental health
→ Self-awareness, subconscious reactions, and changing behaviour
→ Why many mental health struggles may be rooted in wider life circumstances
James Elliott Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jameselliottofficial
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-elliott-msc-8360a41b5/
Transcript
Hello and welcome to the Lonely Chapter, a podcast for people who are doing okay on the surface, but quietly unsure how to live well.
Speaker A:Today's episode is with James Elliott, a psychotherapist and resilience coach who brings both lived experience and professional expertise into the conversation.
Speaker A:This is something that makes his perspective on strength, struggle, and resilience especially compelling.
Speaker A:In this conversation, we talk about the way that we perceive strength, what resilience really is, and the truth behind why James joined the military in the first place.
Speaker A:We also get into the biggest lessons that he took from his time in the military and how those experiences have shaped him since.
Speaker A:If you are new here, please do follow wherever you're listening.
Speaker A:It really helps the show reach more people who might need these conversations.
Speaker A:Let's get into it.
Speaker A:James, for people hearing your name for the first time, what's something that they should know about you?
Speaker B:That's a great question.
Speaker B:So I think something that people should know is that every single thing that I do, I talk about has some form of experience that I've.
Speaker B:I've lived.
Speaker B:Whenever I work with people and I try and support people, I try and help people.
Speaker B:That doesn't mean that I let my bias interfere with what it is that I do.
Speaker B:But when it comes to something, say, for example, supporting someone with their mental health post a traumatic experience, you know, we talk about someone with.
Speaker B:Who's struggling with child abuse, who was abused violently as a child.
Speaker B:You can read all the books that you want, but you don't know the fear of hearing a caregiver come up the stairs.
Speaker B:What are you doing in that field?
Speaker B:Like, if.
Speaker B:And I feel quite strongly about that, that it's very difficult to help somebody if you haven't really experienced that.
Speaker B:Now, that doesn't mean that there isn't space, because there absolutely is for research and academia within that field, for people who haven't experienced it.
Speaker B:Bessel van der Kolk, who wrote the Body Keeps the Score, is very clear about the fact that he can't relate necessarily to what the soldiers and the individuals that you talk about in that book have gone through.
Speaker B:But this is his findings.
Speaker B:But for me, what I tend to find is that if you want to really support somebody emotionally through those really difficult times, it has to be something that you actually really understand.
Speaker B:And I think that, like, a lot of people really don't.
Speaker B:And I think that when I work with someone I'm trying to understand that is coming from a place of.
Speaker B:This is also something that I can really understand and connect with you through And I find that to be really powerful.
Speaker B:So that's, that's really what it is I try and do with people in like a nutshell is try and support them and help them and work through their situations and the problems and dramas and difficulties that they've gone through.
Speaker B:And if something exists outside of my lane of expertise, if something exists outside of my lane of professionalism, I refer them to someone who does live in that space, who has occupied that space and who works to support people from that, say for example, eating disorders.
Speaker B:I wouldn't, I, I, I, I wouldn't do any professional help there for anybody with eating disorders.
Speaker B:It comes to stuff, you know, child abuse, violence, military experiences.
Speaker B:Those are the people that I try and help and support.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's, it's the reason I reached out to you, to speak to you because like you say, a lot of people do speak about these things, but they've never lived these things.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I'm really interested to get into some of the topics today and sort of the blend of those two, the experience and also the education.
Speaker A:I want to start on the topic of strength.
Speaker A:So when we say the word strength, people think of multiple different things.
Speaker A:Might be physical, mental, when you were growing up, when you were younger, what did strength mean to you and how has that changed over time?
Speaker B:Yeah, so strength for me, certainly the version of strength that I would consider, it's a version of strength that we would label as toxic now.
Speaker B:So I thought strength was a man who could fight.
Speaker B:So like I grew up in an environment with this, this drug dealer who would.
Speaker B:In the 90s football violence was like massive, right?
Speaker B:Football Factory movies, that type of stuff was like massive.
Speaker B:I Rise of the Foot Soldier, all of that, that kind of cultural late 90s football violence when Man United were in a league with like Blackburn Rovers and Coventry City working class towns, you know, really like low socio economic demographic and lots of violence.
Speaker B:And I used to go to those games with my, with my dad and he used to, he used to fight in car parks, you know, he used to go into, you know, the West Ham pubs or the Coventry City pubs, you know, and, and he would, he would have these altercations and that was, that was strength, right?
Speaker B:It was who could fight.
Speaker B:And I remember being at school and being like, yeah, who's the hardest in, yeah, who's the hardest in year 11?
Speaker B:Like that was the conversation.
Speaker B:Because my idea of that strength, of that, that masculine form of strength was physical dominance was the ability to fight and beat people up.
Speaker B:And who's the biggest who's the strongest.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:That's just nonsense now, but at the time, that's what you thought it was.
Speaker B:And actually I would label strength now as the ability to hold space for people.
Speaker B:So in a world that teaches us to not be vulnerable, in a world that teaches us that we can't be present, in a world that teaches us that we're not enough, because all those things create people's desire to work harder, buy stuff, Buy things you don't need.
Speaker B:If the more insecure you are, the more you're likely to try and buy things to soothe that insecurity.
Speaker B:So you don't have enough money.
Speaker B:So I need to work harder to make more money, which of course, just.
Speaker B:Essentially just serves the system.
Speaker B:It doesn't really serve you as an individual.
Speaker B:It serves neoliberalism.
Speaker B:That it serves.
Speaker B:Serves neoliberalism.
Speaker B:And you buy more money for things you don't really need because you're so super insecure about it.
Speaker B:But what I would consider strength now would to be people who can hold space for other people can hold that vulnerability, who can be kind, who can be soft, who could be gentle, who can be loving.
Speaker B:None of those things mean weak.
Speaker B:None of those things mean take advantage of that.
Speaker B:Like, if you like the.
Speaker B:The difference between someone who's nice and someone who's kind, someone isn't.
Speaker B:Someone who is nice is someone with no boundaries.
Speaker B:Like, you can just take advantage.
Speaker B:Someone who's kind is somebody who is nice but with boundaries.
Speaker B:So I'm not talking about taking advantage of someone, but I'm talking to someone who can hold space and make space for other people and have these conversations, help soothe other people's insecurities, help help calm and care and love for people who so desperately need it.
Speaker B:That for me is strength now.
Speaker B:But back when I was a kid, strength was who can fight the most, who can hit the hardest, who's, like the most brutal.
Speaker B:That type of strength.
Speaker B:So strength for me has.
Speaker B:Has massively changed.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Is strong to hold, to hold that space.
Speaker A:And it can be really difficult.
Speaker A:A lot of people try and make it about themselves.
Speaker A:So to be able to let people open up and be strong enough to take on some of those burdens, they might be the first time that person's ever spoken to you about something as well.
Speaker A:So if we.
Speaker B:To kind of go back, you know, we're Paleolithic, right?
Speaker B:So the Paleolithic period was two.
Speaker B:Two and a bit million years.
Speaker B:And in that two and a bit million years, we existed as a human race.
Speaker B:We existed in tribes, we existed in support groups and that was the role that we played.
Speaker B:And we consider ancient history to be the Egyptians, which was like, ancient Egypt was 5,000 years ago.
Speaker B:If you consider that like the paleolithic period was 2 million years long.
Speaker B:Like, why is Egypt considered ancient?
Speaker B:It shouldn't put that.
Speaker B:It's not how we're designed to be, you know, and actually a lot of what you were talking about there, like that version of strength, how we support each other, how we grow, how we look after each other, that is actually what we are designed to do.
Speaker B:Like this idea of, like capitalism, of dividing us and separating us and living independently, the idea of grind set, the idea of being introverted, these are all just, these are all incredibly new things that we have created.
Speaker B:It's not how human beings are actually designed to be.
Speaker B:We're not, we're designed to be part of a tribe.
Speaker B:Yeah, right, that.
Speaker B:There's that great saying, it takes a village to raise a child, and it absolutely does, right?
Speaker B:But the village needs things like flexible working hours, support, secure living, food, like all of these things.
Speaker B:Basic needs that it needs to provide for us, that we can all look after each other and look after children.
Speaker B:Like, when did I stop being a child that the village needed to look after?
Speaker B:I've.
Speaker B:I've moved back to where I used to live and just today there's a guy from my rugby club who has known me since I was 14 years of age.
Speaker B:And like, his, his mum lives three doors down.
Speaker B:He was like one of the older boys when I was there.
Speaker B:And so he came and it came in my garden and I was asking him about the wires on the outside.
Speaker B:I said, what's that?
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:And he goes, well, that's all your satellite tv, but you don't use satellite anymore.
Speaker B:It's all linked to your Wi fi.
Speaker B:You can rip that out.
Speaker B:And I was showing him what I was doing in the garden and as he left, he went, I love you, mate.
Speaker B:It's nice to see you.
Speaker B:I was like, yeah, I love you too.
Speaker B:And I'm like, that's what, that's what community is about.
Speaker B:And that's how we're designed to live as human beings.
Speaker B:We're not designed to be, like, divided and, and, and in these, like, isolated, horrible existences, it takes a village to raise them.
Speaker B:And so actually, strength is.
Speaker B:Let's go back, let's go back 10,000 years where we would look after each other and support each other and care for each other and not have any of this, like, awful discussion that we currently have, but instead.
Speaker B:Yeah, right, yeah, like have these discussions.
Speaker B:Like, if you want to talk about, like, it's almost like conservativism.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:The idea that that's slightly right wing is true now, but actually if you go, if you, like, really stuck to conservatism and went back 10,000 years, you would see the most liberal society you've ever seen.
Speaker B:You would see the most, like, socialist organized society you've ever seen, where everybody had a role, everybody was fed, everyone looked after each other.
Speaker B:So actually, like, conservatism only works for like the last 50 years.
Speaker B:If you, like, go further, further, further back, you realize it becomes incredibly caring and loving and supportive, actually, because that's what we're designed to be.
Speaker B:Like, this idea of society as we've structured it now that creates so many mental health issues is something we've recently created.
Speaker B:And actually what we need to do is go back to how we lived 10,000 years ago.
Speaker B:We've.
Speaker B:Which was, we all supported and loved each other and everyone played a role and everyone looked after each other.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, we talk about things regardless whether it's politics or race, gender, all these things.
Speaker A:We'd seem to talk about it as like two sides and it's us and them and it's, you're the enemy.
Speaker A:It's like, it doesn't need to be that way.
Speaker A:Like, there's a middle ground and let's find it and let's all be like you say, like, work as a tribe.
Speaker B:Well, I think, I think human beings in general struggle to entertain two truths in the same moment.
Speaker B:So, like, I can think that regime change in Iran is a really good thing, but I can also think what's going on in Iran is being done in a really bad way.
Speaker B:Those two truths can exist in the same space.
Speaker B:But people, human beings really struggle with that.
Speaker B:And I think we see that particularly when it comes to something like parenting, when how we view our parents.
Speaker B:Particularly if you didn't have a good childhood, it's a really confusing space of being whereby you can be.
Speaker B:I love my parents, but I appreciate that they weren't particularly good at that job.
Speaker B:People really struggle with that because they'll go, oh, but my parents and I love them.
Speaker B:Okay, cool.
Speaker B:They can be your parents and you can love them, but you can also appreciate that hitting you is not an appropriate way to parent a child.
Speaker B:And people really struggle with that.
Speaker B:They really struggle to entertain two truths in the same moment.
Speaker B:You could be happy that something is Happening, but also be sad in the way that it's happening.
Speaker B:Lots of veterans who I work with struggle with that as well, in the sense that they can.
Speaker B:I loved my experiences in the military and everything that I did there.
Speaker B:But also I need to acknowledge the things about that that were really bad and they really struggle with that.
Speaker B:It's a really conflicting emotion for a lot of guys, particularly so much of their identity was tied to it.
Speaker B:To so many of the veterans that I work with really struggle to sit on either side of that.
Speaker B:They'll pick one.
Speaker A:Why do you think people find it so hard to hold two truths at the same time?
Speaker B:I think because as human beings, we're designed to oversimplify things because that ensured survival.
Speaker B:So, say, for example, trust, right?
Speaker B:Trust is really interesting.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We initially really trust people that we meet.
Speaker B:We do.
Speaker B:People think, oh, I. I don't.
Speaker B:I'm really hurt.
Speaker B:But of course, you trust so much.
Speaker B:Like we are currently trusting whoever built these seats has done.
Speaker B:So we're not going to fall through them.
Speaker B:We're trusting that the equipment works.
Speaker B:You trusting when you get in your car and turn it on, it's not going to blow up.
Speaker B:I'm trusting that I've got to meet yours.
Speaker B:Trusting the coffee that we just had that wasn't poisoned.
Speaker B:That you just.
Speaker B:You spend your days as humans just trusting.
Speaker B:Because the brain likes to conserve energy, but not.
Speaker B:Anyway, it's like.
Speaker B:It would be like an absolute nightmare if you didn't.
Speaker B:How do I know you haven't poisoned this coffee?
Speaker B:Can you prove to me this microphone is working?
Speaker B:I want you to sit on this chair before I sit on this chair to make sure this chair works.
Speaker B:Just what I mean.
Speaker B:So we just trust people.
Speaker B:We just trust things and we just go along with it because that's what we do as human beings, and that's the quickest way to go.
Speaker B:And what the brain does is it is.
Speaker B:It likes to repeat and know things because familiarity is safety.
Speaker B:So we don't like things to be challenged.
Speaker B:We like things to make sense.
Speaker B:The brain loves things to just make sense.
Speaker B:Familiarity, we see that within, like dating, we see that within repetition of childhood experiences.
Speaker B:So quite often, people recreate the same dynamic as childhood as adults, but this time they're in control.
Speaker B:So the reason why people struggle to hold two truths is because what you're actually doing is you have to challenge that process of the brain.
Speaker B:Don't simplify it and make it incredibly reductionist.
Speaker B:And then pick one side and stick to that one side because that's familiar.
Speaker B:And that's what we know.
Speaker B:Challenge that, like, challenge that thought pattern.
Speaker B:Challenge that process.
Speaker B:Why is that my bias?
Speaker B:Why is my brain chosen that bias?
Speaker B:Why am I struggling to hear a different side of this?
Speaker B:Particularly, like, when people become defensive and use, like, aggressive language or whatever, the.
Speaker B:What you kind of show in there is, there's something actually is triggering.
Speaker B:Whatever triggers you is you.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So when.
Speaker B:When you say, well, perhaps your parents didn't parent you in the best way possible, and perhaps shouting in your face like, that wasn't great.
Speaker B:And you see people often become quite triggered.
Speaker B:The question that I then think of is, how are you then parenting your children?
Speaker B:Because if that question triggers you so much, is that because you're repeating those patterns in the family home behind closed doors as well?
Speaker A:Don't acknowledge it.
Speaker B:You don't want to acknowledge it.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker B:So entertaining two truths in the same moment can be difficult.
Speaker B:Because we, like, the brain, likes things to be familiar, so we would like to reduce things to their base level, and then we like to stick to that.
Speaker B:And that's what we like to understand.
Speaker B:There's, like, loads of great examples of that.
Speaker A:When.
Speaker B:When a band brings out a second album and the first album was like a rock.
Speaker B:You remember when Mumford and Sons brought out an album and it was like, really rocky?
Speaker B:I do.
Speaker B:But everyone was like, no, no, no, you play folk.
Speaker A:That's not what you do.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:No, go.
Speaker B:Where's the guy with the banjo?
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:Like that.
Speaker B:So people really struggle with.
Speaker B:With Radiohead.
Speaker B:Like, Radiohead produced, like, some of the greatest music that's ever been produced.
Speaker B:But I don't think you could actually categorize any of their albums in the same genre of music.
Speaker B:And actually, lots of people put off by that, because you couldn't categorize, because the brain likes what it.
Speaker B:What it knows and what it understands.
Speaker A:They want to put it in a box and be like, this is Mumford and Sons and they do grand joke.
Speaker A:Like, that is their thing.
Speaker B:That's their thing.
Speaker A:What if they want to just try something new?
Speaker A:I remember that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm so.
Speaker A:Well, because I was like, this is ridiculous.
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's still a great album.
Speaker B:It's still a great album.
Speaker B:But they're like, no, no, no.
Speaker B:Where's the guy with the braces playing the banjo?
Speaker B:Bring him back.
Speaker B:So we like things because that's safe.
Speaker B:Whatever is familiar is safe.
Speaker B:So we reduce things down to their base level.
Speaker B:We kind of pigeonhole them into an experience that we can relate to.
Speaker B:And that's all that we engage with.
Speaker B:And anything that challenges that.
Speaker B:Which is why people hate having their opinions challenged.
Speaker B:Because if I'm challenging your opinion or your perspective on something, lots of people really, really struggle with that.
Speaker B:Because then they go, well, no, because this is what I know and this is what I believe, and this is what I am.
Speaker B:And this is.
Speaker B:And you go, okay, cool.
Speaker B:But if I'm going to challenge that, your brain, that is going to be resistant to that, Basically, you're saying to your brain what you know to survive is wrong because it's very Paleolithic.
Speaker B:So that's what we think.
Speaker B:So then to challenge someone's opinion, you actually have to, like, wrestle a caveman, and that's what you have to do.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And, yeah, people get caught up with.
Speaker A:Their opinion being them.
Speaker A:So when you're challenging an opinion, people feel attacked personally.
Speaker B:You're correct.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You're telling me that I'm stupid, essentially.
Speaker A:It's like, well, no, I'm just saying that maybe you should think about this a different way.
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:So I think there's loads to that.
Speaker B:So, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:I think what people struggle with loads is, first and foremostly, if you've.
Speaker B:If you've attached loads of your identity to an opinion, so be that music, sport, politics, religion.
Speaker B:Like, religion is like a big one.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Like, if you then challenge someone's perspective on religion or on faith or whatever the nuance of that word is, because they've attached so much of their identity to it.
Speaker B:Politics is another really great example.
Speaker B:Basically, what you're saying is, is that it's not just that your opinion is wrong, you are wrong.
Speaker B:And people really struggle with that because so particularly politics and religion, so much of your identity is absorbed by those opinions.
Speaker B:Like, it's not just, oh, I have faith in this, or this is my political thing.
Speaker B:It's, I am a. I am a Christian or I am a Catholic or I am a Trump's.
Speaker B:Whatever it is, right?
Speaker B:I am left, I am right, I am this.
Speaker B:And when it's.
Speaker B:So much of your identity is tied to that, when someone challenges that perspective or that opinion, what you're saying is how you've decided to define yourself is wrong.
Speaker B:And that's inevitably going to get pushed back as well.
Speaker B:Like, if you highlight something about a situation that's.
Speaker B:That's wrong, you.
Speaker B:You highlight.
Speaker B:Say, for example, it's like an issue of morality.
Speaker B:People who have the opposite opinion of you are going to be challenged by that because you're saying you're.
Speaker B:You're like having that is is objectively a wrong opinion to have.
Speaker B:So we see this within, like, safe or simple, like sociological issues, particularly stuff like the awful manosphere thing and the aggression towards women.
Speaker B:And you say speaking to a woman like that is not appropriate and it's wrong.
Speaker B:People struggle to hear that because that's how they've been speaking to women.
Speaker B:So now all of a sudden, that's like a huge challenge.
Speaker B:That's like an affront to them.
Speaker B:Because what you're not saying is, isn't just that that's inappropriate.
Speaker B:What you're saying is that's wrong.
Speaker B:And human beings love to be in the right.
Speaker B:We always justify our behaviors.
Speaker B:So one of the, like, really interesting things when we explore, like, severe crime, like people, no matter what, will try and justify their behaviors, very rarely does a person do a wrong thing, believing in the moment that it's the wrong thing to do.
Speaker B:They or human beings will always try and justify their behavior, which kind of suggests that human beings are actually inherently good.
Speaker B:Because very rarely do we do things knowing that it's the wrong thing to do.
Speaker B:And we don't try and justify it, even when.
Speaker B:Even if it's just something as simple as satisfaction.
Speaker B:So, like, they did this to me, so I'm going to do that to them because it feels good to do that back to them.
Speaker B:Because they did that to me.
Speaker B:That's still somebody trying to justify their behavior.
Speaker B:Unless somebody is, like, sociopathic.
Speaker B:Do we rarely see someone doing the wrong thing?
Speaker B:They know it's the wrong thing, but they're just like, well, I just.
Speaker B:That's just what I wanted to do.
Speaker B:People almost always.
Speaker B:Not true in all cases, of course, but people often try and justify their behavior.
Speaker B:So even when people have abused children, hit their children, screamed at their children, you know, the response is often, but I did what I could with what I had.
Speaker B:Or you were a difficult child.
Speaker B:I've heard that a lot.
Speaker B:And they're just still trying to justify their behaviors.
Speaker B:So if you tell someone that they're wrong, they really struggle with that.
Speaker B:Because I have a whole list of justifications for why they did the thing that they did, even though the thing that they did was the wrong thing to do.
Speaker B:So people struggle with that.
Speaker B:So it's like layered, like, so because identity, because the brain likes us to be right, because that's how we ensure survival, and because we've attached identity to it, and because we always try and justify our behaviors.
Speaker A:On the topic of identity, you spoke in there about how people label themselves and Say I am.
Speaker A:And this was something I read in your book, which I really liked and I remember highlighting it because you were saying about.
Speaker A:People say, and maybe in.
Speaker A:When we look at mental health, we look at like depression and anxiety and people say, I am depressed, I am anxious.
Speaker A:Which doesn't give you a way out.
Speaker A:If you say, I am currently feeling anxiety, it gives you a chance to go, okay, that's what I'm feeling now.
Speaker A:There is going to be a.
Speaker A:Beyond this.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:What's the importance of that?
Speaker B:Little reframing we see when you give someone a diagnosis, we generally see about 33% or third worsening of their symptoms because they've now attached their identity to that.
Speaker B:This is what I am.
Speaker B:I. I often say to people, never attach your identity to that of a noun because nouns change, regardless of what.
Speaker B:If you go, well, I'm a dad, that's never going to change.
Speaker B:But it might.
Speaker B:And I'm really sorry because that's an awful thing to experience.
Speaker B:But like, but it might.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You're not always necessarily going to be that thing.
Speaker B:And there's like so many examples of that where your, your identity.
Speaker B:I. I work with veterans.
Speaker B:What are you?
Speaker B:Oh, I'm a soldier.
Speaker A:Is massive in the fire brigade as well.
Speaker A:After 30 years of service.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You've told yourself your whole life, I am a firefighter or I'm a soldier.
Speaker A:You've gone so long that when you retire, you have to then say, I'm a. I'm a veteran or I'm.
Speaker A:Yeah, you're still tied to it in some way.
Speaker A:I'm an ex firefighter.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Because people, it's really hard to let go of that identity.
Speaker B:To be able to walk away from that identity is an incredibly difficult thing to do.
Speaker B:So then what can we do?
Speaker B:How can we, how can we challenge that?
Speaker B:So I get people to associate their identity to a series of adjectives and noun.
Speaker B:Sorry, adjectives and verbs.
Speaker B:So if you can attach your identity to a series of adjectives and verbs, you become something that can evolve rather than something that's fixed.
Speaker B:So often when people have mental health disorders, mental health illnesses, and they label themselves as that, it worsens their symptoms and they've trapped themselves in being that for the rest of their life.
Speaker B:When I then speak to people about challenging identity, particularly like within the veteran community, Arm and exquaddy.
Speaker B:Put that into a series of verbs.
Speaker B:Put that into a series of adjectives.
Speaker B:Well, I'm loving, I'm compassionate, I'm curious that that fits into many, many Many different environments.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And it actually helps to then for individuals to then conceptualize what they want to be after, you know, moving forward into the future.
Speaker B:So if I've got someone, I say my big thing is find a sense of identity outside of the uniform whilst you still wear it.
Speaker B:So know what you want to be when you leave the military before you leave the military and work on that.
Speaker B:Like, become a series of verbs and adjectives.
Speaker B:So that.
Speaker B:So I know I wanted to go into mental health.
Speaker B:I wanted to go into working with.
Speaker B:With athletes and with men around supporting their mental health.
Speaker B:I go, okay, cool.
Speaker B:Well, because I'm compassionate, because I'm curious, because, um, I'm.
Speaker B:I'm good at handling pressure.
Speaker B:I'm good at supporting other people.
Speaker B:I'm very good at removing my emotional interference from a situation and seeing things slightly more rationally.
Speaker B:Those are great attributes to have to work in this environment.
Speaker B:So that's what I want to go and do.
Speaker B:And so by labeling myself as a series of adjectives and verbs, I was able to conceptualize what I wanted to do outside much easier than, oh, I want to replace one noun with another, which is a very hard thing to do.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:So I want to have a little look at your military experience.
Speaker A:You mentioned that at the start and you've mentioned it sort of throughout.
Speaker A:Like, what was it at first that drew you to the military?
Speaker B:Safety.
Speaker B:Like, I needed.
Speaker B:I needed shelter, I needed food.
Speaker B:I needed purpose.
Speaker B:I needed identity.
Speaker B:I wasn't just lost, as in just a lost and confused teenager.
Speaker B:You know, I was in and out of, like, insecure living, drugs, booze, general idiocy.
Speaker B:Like, not being able to hold on any kind of meaningful work, working building sites, sleeping different places.
Speaker B:It just things going from bad to worse, you know, not always having a roof over your head, not always knowing where you're going to stay, not always having support, not really knowing what was going on and just having nothing but, like, turbulence and anger and confusion.
Speaker B:And the army just seemed like, you know, like so many young men just seem like a really obvious escape.
Speaker B:And the army is very clever, appealing to those people.
Speaker B:Like, you know, one of their latest ones is hashtag, this is belonging, which actually really, really clever.
Speaker B:Like, really clever, like recruitment, because that appeals to people's desire to be part of a tribe.
Speaker B:You know, as we talk about the start, you know, we're Paleolithic, we want to be part of a tribe that supports each other, and the army offers that.
Speaker B:The army is a socialist environment.
Speaker B:Like, fundamentally, that's.
Speaker B:That's what it is, it's the army is socialism and it supports and everyone's got a role to play.
Speaker B:And whether you're injured or whatever and you get fed and you're looked after and welfare is the most important.
Speaker B:You play a role within this team and that is really, really appealing.
Speaker B:And there's adventure and why adventure is particularly appealing to people with underdeveloped prefrontal cortexes, which we often identify within younger men.
Speaker B:The prefrontal cortex, which consciously registers risk and reward, doesn't finish until your early 30s.
Speaker B:So there's like way more risk taking at a younger age, which.
Speaker B:Which obviously plays into assault.
Speaker B:Being a soldier.
Speaker B:Like, we want people who take risks to be soldiers.
Speaker B:Risk takers make very good soldiers.
Speaker B:It's also why a lot of veterans wind up in prison because they're inherently risk takers.
Speaker B:Like the.
Speaker B:To be a submarine captain in the Second World War for the American Navy.
Speaker B:I think they wouldn't allow anybody over the age I think is 25 to do it.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:They wanted completely gung ho risk.
Speaker B:Didn't care.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Risk takers to be.
Speaker B:Which, like, part of me thinks that's really cool.
Speaker B:Other part of me is like, oh God, like, what an awful waste of life.
Speaker B:But, but that.
Speaker B:So, yeah, so.
Speaker B:So that.
Speaker B:And you know, it was the army.
Speaker B:Had somebody told me that we were currently in the middle of an unwinnable war in the Middle East, I would have joined the raf.
Speaker B:Something like that.
Speaker B:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker B:Something.
Speaker B:Yeah, but as it was, nobody told me that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I didn't read.
Speaker B:I didn't read a newspaper.
Speaker B:And yeah, and, and, yeah, and so I, I joined the army mainly out of desperation, seeking comfort, seeking safety, seeking a tribe, seeking purpose.
Speaker A:I don't know if there's stats that you're aware of that have looked into this, but how many people in the army do you think go in for that same sort of reason?
Speaker B:Oh, gosh.
Speaker B:I know that we very deliberately recruit from a low socioeconomic demographic and I've written loads about that.
Speaker B: f a combat soldier recruit in: Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So there's a big thing about want of understanding there as well.
Speaker B:And a huge amount of the recruits come from low socioeconomic demographics.
Speaker B:Again, there's lots of reasoning for that.
Speaker B:Vulnerable children are far easier to radicalize.
Speaker B:That's a strong opinion to have.
Speaker B:I wrote a paper once about comparing the recruitment tactics to the British army to that of isis and there are a lot of similarities.
Speaker B:Like we like quite emotionally Vulnerable young men.
Speaker B:Now, that's where they're very similar.
Speaker B:Where they're very different is like, the British army wouldn't recruit somebody with mental health issues, wouldn't recruit somebody literally from prison.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:And there is a belief of Western morality to it, which is arguable, particularly at the moment of Western morality, but there's an idea of morality.
Speaker B:ISIS is kind of very different.
Speaker B:But again, all human beings justify their behaviors, so they would see that very differently.
Speaker B:However.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So kids from, like, really deprived backgrounds make very, very, very good soldiers.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:Like, there's loads of jokes about why there's so many Scottish people in the sas.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because they're like, actually, this is an improvement.
Speaker B:Like, this is great.
Speaker B:Like, this is love.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:This is way better than where I was before.
Speaker B:And that's like the joke.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But I see there is an element of truth of, like, that level of depravity, that.
Speaker B:That level of vulnerability in childhood that often exists.
Speaker B:It doesn't necessarily make you more resilient, but it does make you easier to radicalize.
Speaker B:That's often what we see.
Speaker B:The confusion is, is that poor kids are really resilient.
Speaker B:They're actually not.
Speaker B:They're actually just really vulnerable.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I see people, and I particularly, like my veteran mates.
Speaker B:Why were we in Afghanistan?
Speaker B:If moral component of why we fight is so important, why were we in Afghanistan?
Speaker B:People like, well, because of terrorism.
Speaker B:What does that mean?
Speaker B:We were there to fight Al Qaeda who were supported by the Taliban, who were in Afghanistan.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:What were we doing there?
Speaker B:Like, it's just like a ridiculous notion, like.
Speaker B:Yeah, like, like justify.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:How do we justify it?
Speaker B:But if you integrate someone into a tribe, whereby the socially normative behavior, the social currency is that of extremity of behavior, of fitness, of strength, of soldiering, of kind of wildness, and if you want to move further up the ranks of that tribe, you need more social currency.
Speaker B:So the more you behave like a.
Speaker B:Like a.
Speaker B:Like a rigid soldier, the more you'll move up that hierarchy of that tribe, then that's effectively how you convince people to do these, like, incredible acts of soldiering, of heroism, is how they psychologically manage it.
Speaker B:And because your.
Speaker B:Your, Your cat badge or beret, your arm, your brigade, whatever it might be, becomes your tribe, effectively has become worth more to you than you as an individual.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's quite an interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Process.
Speaker A:I've been reading.
Speaker A:I'm currently reading the.
Speaker A:The Habit of Excellence, the army leadership book.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:How are you finding it?
Speaker A:Yeah, really interesting.
Speaker B:Like, come on.
Speaker B:Please, please.
Speaker A:Obviously, the.
Speaker A:The history of leadership in the army and how it started off very telling people to do whatever, and they got a lot of people out of prison, stuff like that, who were willing to be talked to in that way.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then realized that they couldn't get anyone else because no one would part with that.
Speaker A:And so they, I suppose, tried to find the balance of where they are now, which is probably a bit more welcoming, but still needs that discipline and everything.
Speaker B:It's a complicated subject, right?
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker B:So the reason why we had officers and the reason why we had soldiers was because soldiers couldn't read.
Speaker B:That's how it, like, think Redcoat Army, Right.
Speaker B:If anyone's ever read Sharp, like, shout out to Sean Bean, like, best thing they ever put on tv.
Speaker B:And it's absolutely time for remake.
Speaker B:If anybody happens to, like, walk to a list of who is in any way involved in TV and you want to make a Sharp remake, I actually volunteer.
Speaker B:I will 100% be one of one of his men.
Speaker B:Do you ever.
Speaker B:Have you ever read Sharp?
Speaker B:You know what I'm talking about?
Speaker B: e bit here, but it was like a: Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's based on historically accurate events, but the character of Sharp is fictitious, so he's a.
Speaker B:He's a red coat private, and he basically goes through the ranks.
Speaker B:And then when the rifles first started, which was a musket with a literal rifling, so it would spin the bullet as it left.
Speaker B:And so then the.
Speaker B:The green coats, like, infantry started, and these were guys who would snipe and he became like, there.
Speaker B:And then he.
Speaker B:He rises through the ranks as an officer, and it's brilliant story.
Speaker B:Bernard Cormo also wrote, you know, like, all the Viking stuff.
Speaker B:So Uthrid son of.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, that one.
Speaker B:Like, he wrote that as well.
Speaker B:So Anyway, there's like 500 sharp books.
Speaker B:I've literally just changed your life.
Speaker B:Enjoy those.
Speaker B:Start with Sharp's Tiger.
Speaker B:Like, you'll never put it down anyway, so.
Speaker B:Because they couldn't read, so there was no way they would know what the orders said.
Speaker B:So, like, they realized that orders were becoming more complicated, so it was easier.
Speaker B:Like, you know, you'd give someone a dispatch, so then you'd have someone who works in dispatches, and they would go and give.
Speaker B:Hand over this sheet of paper with complicated orders on it, and an officer would read it and decipher it and get the men to do it.
Speaker B:So it was a necessity that somebody had to have gone to university and could read.
Speaker B:And generally speaking in the UK at that time, not even generally speaking, like that's just how it was.
Speaker B:It was the aristocracy, right?
Speaker B:It was lords and very much you still see elements of that within like guards units where they're.
Speaker B:It's the super posh kids who went to the super posh schools who are still the officers in there.
Speaker B:And there's like a tradition that they will go and do sort of a few years in the guards before moving into the upper echelons of, of various corporate and whatever banking infrastructures.
Speaker B:Anyway, but we've progressed since then.
Speaker B: the average combat soldier in: Speaker B:There are people who are really, really, really intelligent young men who are academically intelligent and, and like how we measure intellect, particularly in like Western society, I think is really arrogant.
Speaker B:I think like IQ tests are really arrogant.
Speaker B:I think that if you've never been taught the speed, distance, time triangle, you're not going to know half of like the answers to like some of these really complicated questions that we say, well that means you're not intelligent.
Speaker B:But then when you go to like, you know, particularly like third world countries, you'll see like an African guy like piece together a motorbike engine using like bit of string and some wood and he'll piece this thing together and just write like that's nothing.
Speaker B:You're like, this is the most incredible thing I've ever seen.
Speaker B:But by Western metrics, he's not intelligent anyway.
Speaker B:So how we measure intelligence is, is very complicated.
Speaker B:But you get these like incredibly intelligent young men who are now in the military and it's becoming increasingly technology reliant.
Speaker B:So then you get guys who, you know, like drones, drone flying like incredibly like these guys fly drones.
Speaker B:These guys.
Speaker B:We've got like loads of coding jobs in the military now.
Speaker B:Like engineers, both Remy and Royal engineers.
Speaker B:Like those are traits, those are like properly traced and what we expect of like the average, quote unquote average because I think there's anything average about them.
Speaker B:But the average combat soldier now has changed so dramatically.
Speaker B:Like they're so tech heavy, they have to be like so much better educated.
Speaker B:So then what's the purpose of officers then?
Speaker B:I'm not saying we need to get rid of officers, that's not what I'm saying.
Speaker B:But that system that existed before.
Speaker B:So you're reading this book about leadership.
Speaker A:Within the army, fluidly Changing, isn't it?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And I get there's an element of tradition that absolutely has to be upheld.
Speaker B:Like, there's elements of Sandhurst that are absolutely fantastic.
Speaker B:I'm not saying that there's not, because they absolutely are.
Speaker B:But an average conversation.
Speaker B:I've used the word average too much in this bit.
Speaker B:The vast majority of conversations you will have with soldiers, they will be talking about how leadership failed them.
Speaker B:So that begs the question, how is leadership within the British army modernizing?
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker B:And there'll be, wow, we are.
Speaker B:We are.
Speaker B:And you go, are you.
Speaker B:Are you modernizing?
Speaker B:Is this a modern approach to leadership?
Speaker B:I wonder why every single generation of soldiers that you speak to talks about how they got let down by their leadership.
Speaker B:Because the young lads who joined the military who are, like, keen, who want to, you know, go on Special Forces selection, who want to push boundaries, who want to push and promote, who want to play sport, who want to deploy, who want to do all those things, what happens between that guy there and then in 10 years time, him being, I can't stand this.
Speaker B:I hate the military, I want out.
Speaker B:I'm signing off, I'm leaving.
Speaker B:What's happened in that 10 years?
Speaker B:And actually, a lot of time what's happened in that 10 years is he's been failed by his leadership.
Speaker B:And it's actually one of the most heartbreaking things you can see.
Speaker B:One of the most heartbreaking things you can see in the military is young lads, keen, fit, really, like, really enthusiastic, be crushed by a leadership that is just so woefully inept.
Speaker B:And that does happen.
Speaker B:And I think that we have to move forward, we have to acknowledge that that is happening and do more.
Speaker B:Because one of the things that I've seen is, like, on LinkedIn, like, a couple of really terrible officers who I work with.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Doing, like, leadership consultancy.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Look, how on earth is that?
Speaker B:Oh, well, I went to Sanders because.
Speaker A:Of the rank they owed or whatever.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I went to Sandhurst.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But, like, in application, you were terrible.
Speaker B:So it's that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So when you think back across your time in the military, what's the main thing that you think of?
Speaker A:And you think the military taught me this, and it made me unlearn this.
Speaker A:What are the two things that sort of come to mind?
Speaker B:Good question.
Speaker B:I think that what the military taught me first and foremostly was I've always been fit and healthy.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I always.
Speaker B:I've always played sport.
Speaker B:So even when I was, like, going off the rails and drinking drugs and stuff, but sport was always out Sport is just so incredibly important to me.
Speaker B:And I, I realized the importance of sport and being fit and healthy when I was in the army versus saying that we have fitness wins.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Believe in that.
Speaker B:Like, if you are fit and healthy, life is.
Speaker B:Is so much easier.
Speaker B:And I, I'm not disregarding the struggles that people will have.
Speaker B:I'm not disregarding people who can't go to gyms, who have got kids and works and mental health issues.
Speaker B:I'm not.
Speaker B:I'm not that guy.
Speaker B:Like, I'm not pushing that narrative whatsoever.
Speaker B:But by being fit and healthy, life becomes a lot easier.
Speaker B:That is a.
Speaker B:That is.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And it comes from a place of privilege as well, because I wasn't born with any chronic illnesses and also, like, genetically how I'm built.
Speaker B:Great, well done.
Speaker B:But being fit and healthy makes life easier.
Speaker B:Competing in sport is a great way to get fit.
Speaker B:Like, it's, It's.
Speaker B:It makes, like, cardiovascular fitness so much easier.
Speaker B:When you're playing a sport, play sport, get fit, go to the gym, get strong.
Speaker B:That makes life easier.
Speaker B:And that is something.
Speaker B:I will be competing in competitive Sport until I'm 90 years of age.
Speaker B:I will be doing tryouts for the GB Masters Bowls Garden Balls team.
Speaker B:Like, I will.
Speaker B:I will be in sport for the rest of my life because sport is so incredibly important.
Speaker B:What the army really helped me with was unlearning indecisiveness.
Speaker B:Okay, it doesn't matter if it's a bad decision.
Speaker B:Just make a decision.
Speaker B:Like, the only bad decision is the one where you just sit there and you don't do anything.
Speaker B:Like, make a decision and just move.
Speaker B:Stop overthinking it.
Speaker B:It's time to move.
Speaker B:I'm not saying that there aren't times where we should stop and ask, am I doing the right thing?
Speaker B:What's the best thing to do here?
Speaker B:But move.
Speaker B:Do something.
Speaker B:Move.
Speaker B:Be decisive in what it is that you do.
Speaker B:We had a guy break his leg, like, really brutally, like.
Speaker B:Or like, he's in.
Speaker B:He's training mma.
Speaker B:It's like an open mat, and his leg literally, like, snapped in, like, two places.
Speaker B:It looked like the letter Z.
Speaker B:It was like, hope he.
Speaker B:The guy.
Speaker B:Like, there's like a scream, which is a certain tone and pitch, which is.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's really prehistoric.
Speaker B:And it's like, help me.
Speaker B:It's like, help me to the tribe.
Speaker B:I'm distressed.
Speaker B:It's like that kind of scream, you know, the one that really goes through you and.
Speaker B:Yeah, awful.
Speaker B:And after the whole event and air Ambulance came in and I'd helped him and we did all this stuff and we'd move, try to move him and da, da, da, da.
Speaker B:And I held up the drip bag with the, I think it was ketamine in it and like sat with him and did it.
Speaker B:And after, when the guys were like, I've never.
Speaker B:That was.
Speaker B:You were so controlled, you were so decisive, you were so composed.
Speaker B:That was just amazing to.
Speaker B:In an emergency, I'm a really handy guy to have about.
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:I've learned that from the Army.
Speaker B:I've learned that because of training, because of deployment.
Speaker B:Like one of my last jobs in the army was as a parachute instructor.
Speaker B:And so the army basically said, oh, we need new parachuting instructors because the RAF don't effectively have the numbers or the experience or whatever or probably like the will to do like army low level.
Speaker B:Like the cool stuff is like the skydiving at height which like the average soldier would never get an option to do.
Speaker B:Not just like skydiving, but you know, like military skydiving, oxygen masks, super cool guys with blurred out faces, all that type of stuff.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:They would much rather do that than they would like people throwing up and wetting themselves on, on an aircraft trying to get 80 people out of the door.
Speaker B:So they said, oh, would you be instructors there?
Speaker B:And in every course you would see someone's shin pop out of the front or you'd see like their ankle like disintegrate underneath them, or you'd see like a, the hip or whatever pop out.
Speaker B:People getting knocked out on the drop zone.
Speaker B:So you just become.
Speaker B:So the army just taught you like how to like manage terrible situations and that there, that trap.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:How to manage chaos.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that, that really translated onto like civie Street.
Speaker B:You know, just off the top of my head, you know, I was, I was at like a party and this woman was diabetic and she hadn't had a shot of insulin and she passed out in the garden.
Speaker B:And then we had to like call an ambulance and I had to flag the ambulance in and then I had to shuttle run people to the hospital and really calm, really composed the whole time.
Speaker B:People the next day were like, that was amazing.
Speaker B:But like, that's something the army teaches you that, right?
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:How do I stay calm in chaos?
Speaker B:What do what?
Speaker B:Like what, what's the solution to these problems?
Speaker B:What do I do?
Speaker B:So yeah, that, like handy to have about in a, in a, in a pandemonium.
Speaker B:And there's loads of examples of that, like and that's a very military skill.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the two go together.
Speaker A:The thing you said it taught you about fitness is on the extreme end of it for both in that line of work.
Speaker A:And, like, I can relate in firefighting.
Speaker A:It saves lives.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Being fit enough saves lives.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you.
Speaker A:You owe it to yourself, you owe it to your team.
Speaker A:You know, it's the people that you're there for to be as fit as you can be.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:For that reason alone, I've got a.
Speaker B:Line for you on that, right, which is cardio meets cowards of men.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Because if you were the moment someone is gasping in the ring, someone's gasping for airing in an event, someone's gasping for air because they're.
Speaker B:They're spent.
Speaker B:They will look for the easy way out.
Speaker B:It makes people into cowards.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You see it, like, think, consider like.
Speaker B:It was James Webby taught me that, who's like, Cage warrior, light heavyweight, world champion, absolute legend.
Speaker B:He would say, cardi makes cowards out of men.
Speaker B:You see someone absolutely gasping for air, like, you've beaten them, because they're not looking for the hard option, they're looking for the easy way out.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That tap, that knockout is only around the corner.
Speaker B:Same in your line of work, right, As a fire, As a firefighter, someone is absolutely gassed.
Speaker B:They're looking for the easy way out for that moment there because they can't.
Speaker B:They can't maintain that.
Speaker B:And one of the things that I did when I was working with Colchester Rugby Club was they.
Speaker B:They moved into National League and they never went in at halftime ahead, not one single game, but they've still finished, I think, six that year.
Speaker B:Going from whatever it was, North London International League.
Speaker B:It's like a big jump, right?
Speaker B:As everyone knows, like, going from international leagues is a big jump, but they never went in at halftime ahead.
Speaker B:They were fitter than their opposite.
Speaker B:All we did was fitness, fitness, fitness, fitness, fitness.
Speaker B:Yeah, I don't care if you're not winning at half time, I care that you're winning at full time.
Speaker B:And that's how they do.
Speaker B:So they would go in two tries down at half time, but they would be playing at the same intensity 60 minutes in as they were at 20 minutes in.
Speaker B:And there's very few teams who can maintain that and score, score, score.
Speaker B:Fitness wins because cardio will make cowards out of men.
Speaker B:Guys will go to breakdown.
Speaker B:Slower.
Speaker B:Guys will, like, miss tackles.
Speaker B:Blokes won't chase kicks because they're gassed.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Blokes won't do the half thing at work.
Speaker B:Blokes won't soldier, blokes won't fight, blokes won't defend themselves properly.
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:Because they're gassed.
Speaker B:Cardio makes cowards out of men.
Speaker B:The best thing you can do is be fit and strong.
Speaker A:And on the topic of being decisive, spoken about it before, where people think that not making a decision is a dis.
Speaker A:They think it's not a decision.
Speaker A:They think, well, if I just put it off for a bit.
Speaker A:But that is actually a decision.
Speaker A:You're deciding to do nothing, Right?
Speaker A:You're telling yourself you are staying exactly where you are so there's no chance.
Speaker A:If you're thinking about starting a podcast, you can think about it and go, I'll put that off for a month.
Speaker A:So you're choosing to wait now?
Speaker A:Yeah, you're actively choosing, whether you think about it that way or not.
Speaker A:And then I think sort of in, again, the line of work and what you explained, in an emergency situation, you're very good at it, you're calm and you sort of can be decisive in that moment.
Speaker A:There are still people out there that, even after training, aren't they can still be flappy.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's a term that you probably use and.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Are there some people that just aren't made for it, or is it just something that needs to be trained and trained and trained again?
Speaker B:I think it's a school you can learn.
Speaker B:I think.
Speaker B:I think that's what the basis of resilience is.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:The basis of resilience is I am aware of my emotional state, but I'm going to make choices that a rational person would make in this moment, rather than irrational.
Speaker B:So I'm not.
Speaker B:It's not about ignoring my emotions, but it's about accepting, acknowledging, acknowledging them and then making decisions based in a.
Speaker B:In a.
Speaker B:Right, what's the right way for this?
Speaker B:Like, let's just work with lots of fighters, right?
Speaker B:So let's, like, let's look at mma, but happy to, like, discuss the ones.
Speaker B:But this is one that I know, right?
Speaker B:So if we talk about mma, MMA is solving a dynamic puzzle, right?
Speaker B:So there's a couple of things you need.
Speaker B:First and foremostly, cardio makes cowards out of men.
Speaker B:So you need to be fit, because the moment you're not fit, you're looking for the easy way out and that puzzle is going to solve you before you solve it.
Speaker B:And that's how it works, right?
Speaker B:You're both trying to.
Speaker B:Just trying to solve each other's puzzle.
Speaker B:How do I beat this how does he.
Speaker B:And he's looking for how do I beat you?
Speaker B:She.
Speaker B:They are looking for how do I beat you?
Speaker B:Okay, so that, so cardio makes cows out of men.
Speaker B:Secondly, like, stay calm and composed.
Speaker B:That's where people fall down, right?
Speaker B:That's what you're talking about.
Speaker B:Like that being in the moment, being present, because the ring is a lonely place to be.
Speaker B:There's loads of pressure, there are people screaming at you, not that you really hear them, because at that point the brain simply can't take that on.
Speaker B:And what you need to do is have the cognitive composure so that if your bandwidth is that what you need to be doing then is having enough about you so that, that much is being focused on your decision making process, on reacting, on understanding this puzzle and trying to fix it.
Speaker B:If almost all of that cognitive bandwidth has been taken up by.
Speaker B:Oh my God, I'm so scared.
Speaker B:I'm so overwhelmed.
Speaker B:This is horrible.
Speaker B:I want this to end.
Speaker B:Stop.
Speaker B:Put somebody please save me, which is the inevitable thought pattern.
Speaker B:And actually getting people to talk about and admit to that fear is like quite a hard barrier to break down.
Speaker B:But oh my God, that's terrifying.
Speaker B:What do I do?
Speaker B:Like, if you can focus and be controlled and be in the moment, you are already like light years ahead of your opponent.
Speaker B:Because if they're not, if they're going, oh my God, this is horrible, I don't, I want this to end.
Speaker B:Stop.
Speaker B:And you'll go in, jab, jab, hit the single, run the pipe, get into a mount, ground and pound, fight done.
Speaker B:If you're thinking like that, you are far more likely to win.
Speaker B:And they might be bigger, stronger fit or faster, they might be all of those things.
Speaker B:But if they're not in the moment, if they're not concentrated, they're not focusing on solving your dynamic puzzle, you're going to win.
Speaker B:And that's, that's a really, really hard skill to do.
Speaker B:And it's applicable across like a whole wide range of services.
Speaker B:I worked with Scottish police for like 18 months, like doing justice, like Scottish police.
Speaker B:It's massive fighters, it's massive.
Speaker B:Fire service is massive, obviously within the military, it's massive.
Speaker B:Like that ability to stay focused and present is what will set you light years ahead of your opponents.
Speaker B:And, and there's lots of examples of that.
Speaker B:Like loads and loads and loads of just not, not just in those extremities of, of fighting, of warfare, of fire service, of whatever, but loads of so public speaking.
Speaker B:Great example of that.
Speaker B:Board meetings, great example of that.
Speaker B:Like NHS doctors, nurses, paramedics, stay calm, stay composed.
Speaker B:What's a rational decision here?
Speaker B:Getting people through that.
Speaker B:And yeah, like it's a, it's a really, really difficult skill to learn.
Speaker B:But it is absolutely essential people understand that is a skill that can be learned.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And just drilling into that a bit more.
Speaker A:So you mentioned about the emotions that we feel and maybe the emotions that we show externally.
Speaker A:I've spoken a lot on this podcast about stoicism and the philosophy around that and other philosophies which I think is maybe misunderstood online a bit.
Speaker A:And yeah, Ms. Sold, but that's a separate conversation.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Ultimately it's about working out what you're feeling in that moment and then deciding whether that's a good thing.
Speaker A:How should I present that, how should I use that?
Speaker A:So how, how do we get better at doing that in that moment?
Speaker A:Because it's.
Speaker A:I suppose training is the answer really.
Speaker A:But yeah, in those scenarios that you just laid out, you've got to be aware enough to acknowledge what you're.
Speaker A:It's like self awareness.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, but it is that.
Speaker B:It starts with self awareness.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So, so, so many people do like crazy things.
Speaker B:It doesn't even make any sense in the moment.
Speaker B:And you say to him, why did you do that?
Speaker B:Like, you see these things.
Speaker B:That was the most ridiculous behavior I've ever seen.
Speaker B:Like, what on earth were you thinking?
Speaker B:The answer was, was they just didn't have that conscious thought.
Speaker B:They're just not self aware enough.
Speaker B:They just, they're not, they're not in that room.
Speaker B:They're not aware of what it is that they're doing, the effect it has on other people in that moment.
Speaker B:They're thinking self preservation.
Speaker B:What's.
Speaker B:What, what's the easiest way to get this situation to end for me?
Speaker B:Which is why you'll just see some people run away.
Speaker B:Okay, cool.
Speaker B:Like, that is something that people do.
Speaker B:So first and foremost it begins with self awareness and kind of to increase self awareness, it's like a long process, but it has to be a.
Speaker B:Like how.
Speaker B:Checking how am I feeling and why?
Speaker B:Like what, what's going on within myself and why is my subconscious choosing that?
Speaker B:So that's quite a complicated thing to conceptualize.
Speaker B:But the reason you feel the way that you feel is a combination of experiences.
Speaker B:There is an element of genetics to it and biology and that's like neurodiversity.
Speaker B:But like when we examine like the psychosocial, psychosocial biological model of mental health, there are like huge factors that like affect who we are.
Speaker B:And why we do the things that we do.
Speaker B:And this all embeds itself within our subconscious.
Speaker B:So we have our amygdala, this like the Paleolithic cave person that lives in the center of everybody's head.
Speaker B:And the hippocampus, our emotional memory bank that sits directly adjacent to that.
Speaker B:That is a culmination of our childhood experiences.
Speaker B:What we have to understand is the question isn't why am I feeling this way?
Speaker B:The question is, why is my subconscious choosing for me to feel this way?
Speaker B:So, like 101 different things.
Speaker B:So if I was to say, put it into a Brazilian jiu jitsu example, they used to have a coach and he's have this big beard and he was like, re.
Speaker B:He was like a really like enormous, long limbed guy, like six, five, six, six, whatever, big guy.
Speaker B:And he used to like, do like horrible things.
Speaker B:And he used to like nuzzle his like wiry beard into the side of your neck and face, right.
Speaker B:And I used to find that really triggering for me.
Speaker B:That was, that was very triggering.
Speaker B:That was very reminiscent of my childhood.
Speaker B:And like, that would like trigger this response within me.
Speaker B:Now if I ask myself the question isn't why am I feeling this way?
Speaker B:I'm feeling this way because he's doing.
Speaker B:Nuzzling his beard into my neck.
Speaker B:That's a very surface level answer.
Speaker B:But if I was to ask myself, why is my subconscious choosing for me to feel this way?
Speaker B:The answer to that is, is because that's very reminiscent of the way that I would be assaulted as a child.
Speaker B:And he has become a representation of that for me.
Speaker B:And you go, all right, now that makes sense.
Speaker B:That makes.
Speaker B:So now that I'm understanding of that, I can then reason with that better.
Speaker B:And I go, right, okay, cool.
Speaker B:So what I absolutely need to do is work on that.
Speaker B:Staying calm in the moment, catching my breath, breathing, focusing on the controllables.
Speaker B:How do I beat this guy?
Speaker B:How do I get past this guy?
Speaker B:How do I stop this from happening?
Speaker B:And there's that.
Speaker B:That moment whereby you then, you know, quote unquote, beat someone in a round.
Speaker B:You know, if he's training around, nobody cares.
Speaker B:But like, but it's that I'm not just panicking and getting caught in the moment and being overwhelmed.
Speaker B:Instead, I'm staying calm and I'm working my way.
Speaker B:I'm solving this dynamic puzzle.
Speaker B:Put that into any different context, any.
Speaker B:And like from the question isn't, why does my partner make me angry?
Speaker B:The question is, why is my subconscious choosing anger when my partner does that?
Speaker B:Because you can then greater understand yourself.
Speaker B:And the more you understand yourself, the more you can reason, the more you can start picking better responses and reactions to the world.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So that's like a quite a complicated and difficult process to do.
Speaker B:But that is the fundamentals of counseling.
Speaker B:Counseling is about understanding.
Speaker B:Why is my subconscious choosing these responses.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Quite often when we say why, like you say, we just look at the surface level.
Speaker B:Surface?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Why am I feeling this way?
Speaker B:Oh, because he did that.
Speaker B:Okay, but why is your subconscious choosing anger in response to that?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because that.
Speaker B:What's that reminding you of?
Speaker B:What?
Speaker B:How is that a reflection of you?
Speaker B:Why is your subconscious using anger?
Speaker B:And why is your subconscious not choosing humor?
Speaker B:Oh, because then that person making that joke actually makes me feel really threatened.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Why.
Speaker B:Why is it about that joke that makes you feel threatened?
Speaker B:Well, because I'm not particularly secure on my social hierarchy.
Speaker B:I'm actually quite insecure.
Speaker B:So that person making that joke has highlighted my insecurity and actually my internalized belief that I don't deserve to be where I am, and therefore I'm meeting that with anger.
Speaker B:It's the same reason to stay in that context.
Speaker B:Why when somebody makes a negative comment on something that you're doing, you often hyperfocus on that.
Speaker B:Because actually, our paleolithic caveman, who's insecure kind of believes what they say.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, oh, you're a piece of shit.
Speaker B:You don't deserve to be here.
Speaker B:Like, what a loser.
Speaker B:Who cares what you've got to say?
Speaker B:That really sticks with you because you're like, I kind of believe that, though.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Someone goes.
Speaker A:You see, people, like, fixate on that one comment that's negative when they've got hundreds or maybe thousands that are positive.
Speaker B:Because we don't believe them.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So someone go, oh, James, like, this is something that you're obviously really passionate about.
Speaker B:You're really well educated on.
Speaker B:I like listening to you.
Speaker B:You're like, liar.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Someone's like, james, you're a piece of shit.
Speaker B:I know what you really are.
Speaker B:I hate you.
Speaker B:You should be ashamed of yourself.
Speaker B:And it's like, yeah, probably.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, I can believe that.
Speaker B:And that's why we hyper fixate on it.
Speaker B:Because why?
Speaker A:Why do we hyper fixate on the negative?
Speaker B:Because we.
Speaker B:We believe it to be true about ourselves and our brain that wants us to be safe, Our paleolithic caveman that wants us to be safe effectively doesn't want us to step outside of our lane, doesn't want us to put our head above the parapet, doesn't want to in any way disrupt this make believe social hierarchy that we've generated for ourselves.
Speaker B:So we don't like that.
Speaker B:We want to avoid that.
Speaker B:We want to keep safe from, from, from putting ourselves out there.
Speaker B:So when somebody makes a negative comment, we hyper fixate on it because we subconsciously, deep down, we kind of believe that to be true about ourselves.
Speaker B:And therefore we find that we stick to that.
Speaker B:We're like, yeah, that's correct.
Speaker B:But somebody goes, oh, you're great and you're funny and you're brilliant and I really like what you do.
Speaker B:You're like, well, you're lying.
Speaker A:Lying.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:When we look at resilience, then.
Speaker A:So let's dig into that a bit.
Speaker A:Obviously a book.
Speaker A:Think yourself resilient.
Speaker A:Really good book.
Speaker A:Really enjoyed it.
Speaker B:Thanks for that.
Speaker A:I've highlighted a lot of my Kindle for that.
Speaker B:Cool.
Speaker B:I say to people, if you hated it, still give it five stars.
Speaker B:Say what you got to say in the comments, but still give it five stars because that'll push it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I mean, slack me off all you want in the comment, but like, give me five stars.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:When we look at resilience, maybe it's something that not a lot of people fully understand.
Speaker A:They know the word it gets thrown around a lot.
Speaker A:Be more resilient.
Speaker A:What does that actually mean?
Speaker A:People think it's just being able to endure more pain.
Speaker A:Is it really that simple?
Speaker B:Or how would you break it down?
Speaker B:So one of the things that I do is whenever I work with groups is I is I write the word resilience and I say, what does that actually mean to you?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So I worked with, say, for example, the charity group, not charity, but the group Voice, who support victims of violent crime.
Speaker B:A lot of women, a lot of sexual violence, they support women get into the witness stand and what does resilience mean to them?
Speaker B:Well, like, surviving sexual abuse is a really resilient thing to do.
Speaker B:Like helping your kids to escape that environment is a really resilient thing to do.
Speaker B:Staying compassionate and loving and kind despite every single reason in the world to not be that is a really resilient thing to do.
Speaker B:But we often dismiss that because you think resilient and you think this kind of brand of resilience, which is just like enduring pain, which is turning surviving into thriving.
Speaker B:And that's like an unfair narrative.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Like it's not.
Speaker B:Resilience is not something to be weaponized to further neoliberalism.
Speaker B:Like resilience is about understanding and embracing things that you've gone through and what we can learn through them.
Speaker B:It's about, like the lessons of life, it's about personal growth, it's about.
Speaker B:Sometimes it's about surviving.
Speaker B:And yeah, so often it's misbranded, it's Ms. Sold.
Speaker B:And people think, oh, it doesn't apply to me, but in some way it applies to everyone.
Speaker B:When I was.
Speaker B:When I was in the military doing this and I was part of the Army Mental Resilience training team, I ran a team in the south and we went to all of these different camps and so some of them it's were we.
Speaker B:You'd be with a band, right?
Speaker B:The Guards band one day and then you'd be with, you know, some.
Speaker B:A commando unit the next or a para unit the next, or even like a special forces unit.
Speaker B:So you'd hear like the extremities and sometimes resilience to bandsmen was.
Speaker B:I've gone for a really messy breakup, but I'm expected to turn up and I've still got to perform this really complicated piece of music with sometimes millions of people watching.
Speaker B:And then you'd speak to these other guys waiting to deploy and they'd be like, kicking down doors and chasing off the bad guys.
Speaker B:That's the form of resilience.
Speaker B:All of it kind of boils down into the ability to manage your emotional state and make choices.
Speaker B:But how that shows up in your life is just such a fascinating thing.
Speaker B:You know, there are.
Speaker B:Consider like a cost of living crisis.
Speaker B:People are going to have to start showing resilience all the time because of life is becoming more and more unaffordable.
Speaker A:And they probably are already without knowing it.
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I often say to people, I've known a few people who have been sort of suicidal or very in a bad place mentally, and they've now come out of it.
Speaker A:And whether or not they're.
Speaker A:They think they're fully fixed, to use an awful word, but to think they're.
Speaker A:They might not be fully out of the other side, but the fact that they were there and they're now here and still going is resilience in itself, isn't it?
Speaker B:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker B:And that actually highlights a really interesting question, which is do we get diagnosis and symptoms the wrong way around?
Speaker B:So, like, we're talking about like cost of living creating loads of stress, loads of pressure, which ultimately adds to people's struggles and exacerbates and can often lead to mental illness.
Speaker B:So they said a person is diagnosed as having depression, right?
Speaker B:Depression is a diagnosis.
Speaker B:But is depression diagnosis or is Depression, the symptom of crushing bills, chronic loneliness, social isolation, lack of fulfillment in work.
Speaker B:Like, have we, have we got that the wrong.
Speaker B:Is it just.
Speaker B:I'm not a clinician, it's a discussion for clinicians.
Speaker B:But have we got that the wrong way around?
Speaker B:Like, if a person is, is chronically lonely and we diagnose that person as depressed, why are we diagnosing that person as depressed?
Speaker B:Because we've got all the symptoms of depression.
Speaker B:Okay, cool.
Speaker B:But it's because they're so lonely.
Speaker A:We're not looking at the cause.
Speaker B:So is the diagnosis loneliness and the symptom depression?
Speaker B:Are we getting those two things the wrong way around?
Speaker B:Which is a really complicated, layered question.
Speaker A:That's a very interesting question.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But I think I, I feel like the answer a lot of the time is yes.
Speaker B:So someone's like hideously depressed.
Speaker B:Why.
Speaker B:Why is this individual feeling so well?
Speaker B:They've lost their job, they're zero romantic interest from the opposite gender, and they spend all of their time alone.
Speaker B:So I'm diagnosed, that person is depressed.
Speaker B:Okay, cool.
Speaker B:But like, is there not some social programming we should be talking about here?
Speaker B:So is there not like a sports club just as an example, like obviously context dependent.
Speaker B:Is there not like a sports club we could talk about or some kind of social group or some kind of community work?
Speaker B:Is there not some sense of fulfillment they can find from voluntary work, from support from.
Speaker B:Or maybe there's a job we can find these people.
Speaker B:If we met people's basic needs and esteem needs, would we be having so many mental health issues?
Speaker B:The App Jeep, the all parties parliamentary group did a report into men's suicidality a few years ago and they basically stopped saying that mental health.
Speaker B:Sorry, that suicide was a mental health issue.
Speaker B:And they started saying that actually it's quite a rational decision for a lot of men because they're facing homelessness, they're facing unemployment, they've lost their money, they're single, wife has left kids have left, parental alienation, social isolation.
Speaker B:It just becomes like actually quite a rational choice.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So do we need to start diagnosing these people having mental health issues?
Speaker B:And that's why men, it's okay to talk, quote unquote, men, it's okay to talk.
Speaker B:Okay, cool, thanks for that.
Speaker B:And I do get that there actually are, there is still an element of stigma which mainly tends to come from other men.
Speaker B:There is still an element of, of sigma.
Speaker B:I get that.
Speaker B:However, like, look at the problems that a lot of these guys are actually facing.
Speaker B:And the, there are studies Going into these.
Speaker B:And we are aware of this and we do talk about socioeconomic factors that, that, that affect people, but like a lot of men that are struggling with.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:Okay, cool.
Speaker B:If we want to reduce things like suicidality, you have to improve living conditions.
Speaker B:If everyone had guaranteed housing, if, if food was a human right, if everyone around the world had had food and water, if like electricity and water and gas were, were, were nationalized and you were like guaranteed heating in your home, and I was going to turn the lights out and you had food and food was available and things were going to be okay, would we have so much suicidality?
Speaker B:And the APPG report says no.
Speaker B:No, you wouldn't.
Speaker B:And I, I mean, I agree with that.
Speaker B:Like, are we getting this the wrong way around?
Speaker B:It's a really fascinating conversation.
Speaker A:Yeah, is, is something that I've never really thought of.
Speaker A:I've never had anyone explain it that way.
Speaker A:And thinking of how we diagnose versus symptoms.
Speaker A:Yeah, I suppose depression is always a symptom of something.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, there are neurobiological.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So there are like, I wouldn't say something like, oh, schizophrenia.
Speaker B:Have we got the diagnosis since, like, that's quite an extreme example.
Speaker B:But like, that's like a neurological.
Speaker A:Maybe the majority.
Speaker A:There may be.
Speaker B:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:But like average person who's feeling a.
Speaker B:Bit, someone says, like, the world's at war because we've got war in the Middle east now, we've got war in Africa, got war in central South America and we've got war in Europe.
Speaker B:We're in somewhere.
Speaker B:Well, I'm having like existential crises and I've been diagnosed as anxious.
Speaker B:And you're like, yeah.
Speaker B:There's also a lot of things to be anxious about, though.
Speaker B:Like we're getting all these, like, cost of living is about to go up massively.
Speaker B:Like petrol is becoming like completely unaffordable.
Speaker B:Like, it's an absolute nightmare.
Speaker B:Okay, cool.
Speaker B:Yeah, you, you're right.
Speaker B:So maybe then there are things to be anxious about, but also like, there's like, of course, like mental illnesses that absolutely are not a case of getting that, you know, the wrong way around.
Speaker B:And there are people in my family with like really severe mental illnesses, so I appreciate that perspective as well.
Speaker B:And I think also when I talk like this, I have to be really careful that I'm not in any way sounding like an anti intellectual.
Speaker B:So like, anti intellectualism is like a real problem being faced by like, particularly the nhs, which is people who are like, oh, I Know better.
Speaker A:Yeah, like, like vaccines.
Speaker B:The anti vax movement is based around anti intellectualism and anti intellectualism is based around.
Speaker B:You can we should be disregarding what the evidence shows us.
Speaker B:You go with what you personally hold and believe to be true, which is identity, which obviously has a political agenda.
Speaker B:Then it doesn't matter if people who are way more educated than you are making observations around what we.
Speaker B:What, what is very clearly true.
Speaker B:Because you can dismiss that person if it doesn't align to your identity with this anti intellectualism narrative.
Speaker B:And that has spilled over into healthcare.
Speaker B:And healthcare should not have hunting.
Speaker B:Healthcare should only have intellectualism in it.
Speaker B:It should, it should have people who are informed on subjects being seen as subject matter experts.
Speaker B:Yeah, like studying is a, it's a really difficult skill to do.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, I just don't want anyone to think that I'm spinning into that kind of anti selectivism.
Speaker B:Disregard what your doctor says.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:Don't do that.
Speaker B:But the bigger kind of social question is like the create the, the, the causes of these like mental health issues that we're seeing are actually quite explicable when you understand the wider picture.
Speaker B:And actually do we need to do more to affect the source of it than we do to treat this?
Speaker B:So are we getting symptoms and diagnosis the wrong way around?
Speaker A:Something I want to just drop back into was something you mentioned earlier about like learned behaviors.
Speaker A:So people who maybe have learned behavior and you were talking about parenting at the time and they may not know it.
Speaker A:So we obviously pick up things subconsciously throughout our childhood, right?
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:And when we're running these back, people might look at a behavior of their parent and go, I want to be like that or I don't want to be like that.
Speaker A:How hard is it to be self aware enough, I suppose to look at those things that way as opposed to just inherit like learning them.
Speaker B:I think the moment that you learn to regularly ask yourself why am I choosing this?
Speaker B:What is it about this that my subconscious wants?
Speaker B:That process becomes much easier to do.
Speaker B:You have to be really comfortable with hearing uncomfortable truths about yourself.
Speaker B:So say for example, teenage daughter, I have one like having a meltdown about going to school for whatever reason, you know, and, and there's lots of things to have my.
Speaker B:I'm so glad that I'm not a child in this generation.
Speaker B:Like social media didn't exist when I was at school and they're like screaming.
Speaker B:You get this like burning anger inside of you and you think why, why am I choosing this angle?
Speaker B:Like almost like that violent Rage.
Speaker B:Why is that?
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:And it's ultimately because that would have been met with violent range for me as a child.
Speaker B:And it makes you kind of away.
Speaker B:I guess you don't really realize necessarily how abusive your childhood was until you have a child and you're like, oh, God, I'm never gonna do to her what was done to me.
Speaker B:But when she screams in my face like that, that thought pops into your head.
Speaker B:You go, I want to be angry.
Speaker B:I want to scream back.
Speaker B:I wanna, like, I physically lash out.
Speaker B:Like it was physically lashed out at me.
Speaker B:And I'm never going to do that.
Speaker B:Of course, I'm not like, I love her.
Speaker B:But what I mean is, is that the moment you become more aware, it becomes much easier to challenge that, because there's lots of people who, in that environment, in that circumstance, in that context, would have repeated those behaviors.
Speaker B:And the classic line is, it's what happened to me as a child and it did me no harm.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they can't see the harm it's done them, Correct?
Speaker B:Yeah, correct.
Speaker B:Because that is ultimately what that statement means.
Speaker B:If you do something awful to someone and.
Speaker B:And then you say afterwards, that happened to me as a child and it did me no harm, what you're saying is, is that you're acknowledging the fact that it was awful, but you're saying it's okay to do that awful thing because it didn't do you any harm.
Speaker B:But if you're willing to do something awful to someone under the guise that it did you no harm, I've got some terrible and uncomfortable news.
Speaker B:It definitely did you some harm, and that's what we have to do.
Speaker B:You can't sit in this space of shaming ourselves for thoughts, because if you shame yourself for a thought, you'll never, ever, ever beget, give yourself the chance to process it and manage it and challenge it and change it.
Speaker B:But what we do have to do is sit in that space whereby we're willing to be uncomfortable and sit with these uncomfortable thoughts so that we can challenge and change behaviors.
Speaker B:And it's a very difficult thing to do.
Speaker B:But once you've gotten into that habit of being more self aware, you can still do it and you can still challenge it and you can still change it.
Speaker B:Difficult, though.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:For anyone listening today who's listening to our conversation, listen to the things we've said, and maybe wants to start trying to become more self, aware, trying to ask themselves these deeper questions, what's one thing that they can take away and start doing today?
Speaker B:Read books, right?
Speaker B:So first and foremost, Lee, I think there's like an app which is like, oh, we summarize books into five minutes.
Speaker B:So you just have to listen to this for five minutes.
Speaker B:You'll understand the book.
Speaker B:That is hot, right?
Speaker B:That is just destroying your brain.
Speaker A:Social media of books.
Speaker B:Yeah, like, absolutely.
Speaker B:And they're like, marketing.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:A genius will do this.
Speaker B:No, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker B:You will sit and you will read a page like a book.
Speaker B:Like the body keeps the score, right?
Speaker B:You'd read a page of that?
Speaker B:I'd read two pages that.
Speaker B:And I'll go, oh, that's going to make me think about myself and my behaviors and why I do the things that I do.
Speaker B:And you go, all right, you should.
Speaker B:You should understand and quantify this, because reading is like this.
Speaker B:It's like a.
Speaker B:It's not a completely lost heart.
Speaker B:Of course it's not.
Speaker B:But it's an art that I think is becoming a little bit skewered.
Speaker B:So allow me to explain.
Speaker B:Book talk, I think, is actually a net negative, not a net positive.
Speaker B:I'm all up for people reading and reading books and having fun reading books.
Speaker B:That's really important.
Speaker B:If you're trying to read 50 books in a year, you are missing the point of reading.
Speaker B:It's about understanding stories and, like, subtext.
Speaker B:And how does this apply to me and what does this mean to me?
Speaker B:Like, there's just loads and loads of examples of this.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That's just so important.
Speaker B:Reading a book like Lord of the Rings is not about reading Lord of the Rings in a week.
Speaker B:It's about understanding.
Speaker B:What is Tolkien trying to say?
Speaker B:Like, he was.
Speaker B:He was the.
Speaker B:Like I say Og.
Speaker B:He wasn't because Karl Marx.
Speaker B:But like, they're like one of the Og Anti capitalists, right?
Speaker B:That's the point of, like the Hobbit, right?
Speaker B:Is it is about greed and about Thor and Oakenshield's greed for the gold and how he loses himself in that.
Speaker B:He becomes Elon Musk.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:He just.
Speaker B:All he cares about is this accumulation of power and wealth.
Speaker B:He doesn't care.
Speaker B:That's all he cares about.
Speaker B:No, he.
Speaker B:He forsakes the bonds of loyalty and love and compassion because all he cares about is that money.
Speaker B:That's the point he's making.
Speaker B:They call it dragon sickness, and now dragon sickness is everywhere.
Speaker B:But that's the point of it.
Speaker B:And then, of course, Bilbo returns to Hobbiton and the Shire and he can't connect with anybody.
Speaker B:Yeah, there's Plato's Cave of ignorance.
Speaker B:He's referring to Plato's cave of ignorance.
Speaker B:Frodo trying to carry the ring up through Mordor.
Speaker B:That's the Stations of the Cross.
Speaker B:He collapses.
Speaker B:He is a representation of Jesus Christ carrying this cross.
Speaker B:And he shows his humanity in the same way that Jesus did.
Speaker B:Like, these are the important.
Speaker B:You should read these books and understand subtext.
Speaker B:People need to read books if you're like.
Speaker B:And not just information, right?
Speaker B:Not just sitting there and reading self help books, but reading stories because stories are so important to us as human beings.
Speaker A:Underrated.
Speaker B:So underrated.
Speaker B:Like, you should read these books and sit there and be like, gasping.
Speaker B:Like, I talk about sharp, right?
Speaker B:Sharp story of heroism and making out of poverty and surviving struggles and love and all of this great stuff, right?
Speaker B:And you should relate and understand these characters.
Speaker A:I've just started reading the Harry Potter books.
Speaker B:Love it.
Speaker A:Super late.
Speaker B:Cool.
Speaker A:But the amount of times that Dumbledore said something and I've gone, this man, he dropped some.
Speaker A:Well, it's obviously J.K. rowling, but yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:There's some amazing lines and quotes there.
Speaker B:And I'm like, wow, professor, is this real or is this all in my head?
Speaker B:And he says, just because it's all in your head, who says that isn't real?
Speaker B:And you're like, that's a line.
Speaker B:There's also, like, hideous racist undertones in, like, the book.
Speaker B:Like, when you look at, like, the name she gives to, like, anybody of any racial diverse character.
Speaker B:However, the stories themselves are great stories.
Speaker B:Like, lose yourself in that and understand, like, the subtext.
Speaker B:And what does this mean?
Speaker B:Is it actually say, like, to me, like, Shrek?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:The fairy tale creatures are representation of the LGBTQ community.
Speaker B:Like, Pinocchio is a twink.
Speaker B:The wolf literally wears a dress like the pigs are gay.
Speaker B:Like, it's literally what it's supposed to be.
Speaker B:Lord Farquhar is a fascist.
Speaker B:That's like.
Speaker B:That's like literally the point of it.
Speaker B:I was talking about Blade the other day, right?
Speaker B:Blade's about heroin.
Speaker B:The vampires are all heroin addicts and he takes methadone.
Speaker B:And all of the familiars are white people in positions of power.
Speaker B:They're representations of drug dealers.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:The vampires, they even look like how they dress, how they can't go out in daylight, how they're so pale and withdrawn that it's a story about heroin.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:People are like, oh.
Speaker B:And that never occurred to me.
Speaker B:And it's like, because we don't read and, like, critically analyze and.
Speaker B:And consider this anymore, we don't understand subtext.
Speaker B:We don't like read things and think, how does this apply to me?
Speaker B:Because I think things like booktok have made like reading a competition.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:To finish off the episode, James, something I like to do is ask my guests to leave a question for the listener.
Speaker A:So I like to listen to podcasts, go away, have a conversation about what I've listened to.
Speaker A:If you could leave a question for the listener to go away and start a conversation today, what question would that be?
Speaker B:Firstly, that's a great question.
Speaker B:Pablo Picasso says the meaning of life is to find your gift, but the purpose of life is to give your gift away.
Speaker B:So my question would be, what is your gift and how are you giving it away?
Speaker B:The amount of people who find fulfillment in giving their gift away.
Speaker A:Life Changer awesome question, James.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker B:Ted.
Speaker A:Really appreciated it.
Speaker A:People want to find you online, keep up to date with what you're doing.
Speaker A:Where can they do that?
Speaker B:James Elliott official on Instagram and James Elliott MSC on Twitter LinkedIn.
Speaker B:See me on there.
Speaker B:Ask me questions, whatever you want.
Speaker A:Excellent.
Speaker A:And to the listener, if you've found value from this episode, please do share it with someone you think would find some value from it as well.
Speaker A:And if you haven't already, please do follow or subscribe to the show wherever you're watching or listening.
Speaker A:It really helps the show grow.
Speaker A:But for now, thank you for listening, stay curious and I will see you in the next one.
