Episode 103
Are Men Being Mis-Sold TRT? | Dr Rob Stevens
The conversation around low testosterone has exploded.
Online clinics, adverts, influencers and high-profile men are all talking about testosterone replacement therapy as if it could be the missing piece for men who feel tired, flat, foggy or disconnected.
But is TRT being understood properly, or is a complex medical issue being sold as a quick fix?
In this episode, I’m joined again by Dr Rob Stevens, founder of The Men’s Health Clinic, to talk about the reality behind the testosterone boom. Rob explains why testosterone deficiency should not be reduced to a simple answer for every man’s fatigue, why proper testing and clinical oversight matter, and why sleep, nutrition, exercise, mindset and lifestyle need to be addressed first.
We also explore why men lose their sense of joy, the danger of chasing comfort, why men often need better spaces to talk, and how modern life can pull us away from our bodies, instincts and each other.
This is a conversation about testosterone, but it is also about responsibility, self-awareness, connection, and what it really means to earn your reward.
In this episode, we explore:
→ Why the testosterone market has grown so quickly online
→ How men are being targeted with “quick fix” health messaging
→ Why TRT can be life-changing, but only in the right context
→ Why sleep, nutrition, exercise and mindset still matter first
→ Why men need better spaces to talk honestly
→ How comfort can keep people stuck
→ Why reconnecting with nature, movement and presence matters
Find Rob here:
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@drrobertstevens
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.robert.stevens/
Find The Men’s Health Clinic here:
Transcript
Since we last spoke, it seems to me, and I don't know whether it's my algorithm that's picked it all up, but it seems to me like the testosterone market, especially online, has just gone absolutely insane.
Speaker A:It's online companies, famous people telling their stories about how it's changed their lives.
Speaker A:When you look out at that, what do you make of it all?
Speaker B:How long have you got?
Speaker B:We've spent 10 years trying to legitimize this, raise awareness in the correct way through education.
Speaker B:We've built up a successful practice with 5,000 plus patients from 50 different countries.
Speaker B:And these online companies that are not run by doctors have obviously seen testosterone deficiency as a cash cow.
Speaker B:And certain companies pumping tens if not hundreds of thousands of pounds a month into advertising testosterone deficiency and testosterone replacement therapy and using these social media influencers to promote their business.
Speaker B:But what they're doing is, is they're giving this, it's a Ms. Sell because, you know, you'll listen to one influence who will say testosterone makes you feel 10 years younger.
Speaker B:That's literally absurd.
Speaker B:And some of these guys with testosterone deficiency are struggling and obviously they want to get better and they want to get better in the shortest route possible.
Speaker B:But it's not as simple as that.
Speaker B:Again, we spent 10 years trying to raise awareness and improve the level of understanding that testosterone deficiency is often the end result of a cascade of wrongdoings.
Speaker B:So, you know, jumping on testosterone is not going to cure you.
Speaker B:Looking to address all those other aspects of your health and then going on testosterone replacement therapy.
Speaker B:Once you've addressed all those other things like lifestyle, nutrition, exercise and mindset, then testosterone can be life changing and in fact sometimes life saving, which is very disturbing.
Speaker B:But you have to put the effort in and it goes back to the famous saying, earn your reward.
Speaker B:My algorithm is full of testosterone adverts.
Speaker B:I block, I block, I block, I block.
Speaker B:And they still come through.
Speaker B:So they must be spending so much money on promoting testosterone replacement therapy as this cure or fix all.
Speaker B:And it's not, you know, it's a medical condition that should be managed by doctors.
Speaker B:It's not a quick fix and it's, it's more than frustrating.
Speaker A:It looks quite predatory from the outside for like.
Speaker A:So when I think about the conversation we had before going into that conversation, I didn't know much about it.
Speaker A:And I still tell people when they ask me which are my favorite episodes, I always say that's one of the ones that stuck with me the most and changed my perspective and taught me a lot.
Speaker A:And now when I look at that and I think about these people that are looking at that going, this is an answer to all my problems.
Speaker A:And within a few weeks they could have had a blood test, be told that they can get TRT and suddenly they're injecting themselves without even looking at any of the other stuff.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:So the advertisement.
Speaker B:Are you tired?
Speaker B:It could be low testosterone.
Speaker B:So it's Marketing 101, isn't it?
Speaker B:But there are over a hundred causes for fatigue and you want to be looking at the fundamentals before you want to be looking at testosterone replacement therapy.
Speaker B:And as you know, we always advocate a comprehensive blood screen to look at all the parameters to give me the chance to effectively advise that potential patient whether they need testosterone replacement therapy.
Speaker B:Because again, testosterone deficiency is a diagnosis of exclusion.
Speaker B:There are lots of things that you can potentially do to improve your overall health and not need testosterone replacement therapy.
Speaker B:So these online companies are promoting a cheap, simple blood test which is.
Speaker B:Sounds super attractive, doesn't it?
Speaker B:It's cheap, it's simple and will tell you if you've got low testosterone.
Speaker B:And you know you're doing the blood test because you notice there's a problem.
Speaker B:Now say I get a bad night's sleep, is my testosterone going to be optimal?
Speaker B:Well, it is because I'm on testosterone.
Speaker B:But if, if I was natty and I had a bad night's sleep and I had a big meal and I exercised, my testosterone would be low.
Speaker B:So it's a false cell because you're going to find what you're looking for, which is borderline or low testosterone, to be then told.
Speaker B:What you need is a comprehensive test before we can start you on testosterone replacement therapy.
Speaker B:So again, it's all, it's all topsy turvy.
Speaker B:What you should be looking to do is looking to not need testosterone replacement therapy and only go on testosterone replacement therapy once you've addressed everything.
Speaker B:Because then testosterone will be life changing, not the other way around.
Speaker A:Is there any positive to the increased awareness around it?
Speaker A:Obviously we've spoken about the potential negatives there.
Speaker A:With the companies sort of preying on people who might be in a bad place.
Speaker A:Is there a positive to it?
Speaker A:In, in a way?
Speaker B:Of, of course.
Speaker B:I mean, if you're raising awareness, you're raising awareness and hopefully people will show due diligence and do their research and say, right, okay, perhaps I need to do this first.
Speaker B:That first, there are lots of people out there struggling and suffering in silence.
Speaker B:And again, we're men, we don't admit to problems, but Social media has sort of opened up that gateway for people to go, okay, that sounds like me.
Speaker B:And again, we want that level of empathy.
Speaker B:And these adverts, whilst they're misguided, they are raising awareness.
Speaker B:It's just making sure that people aren't too reactive and they're more considered about their approach into what might be going wrong.
Speaker B:And again, we all want quick fixes and we're all seduced by shiny bright things.
Speaker B:But I would just urge people to just take a step back and do their own research before they jump into committing to something that they may not need and they won't truly value or appreciate if they don't need it.
Speaker A:And in terms of that research that you mentioned, people should be doing before they jump into it, if they see one of these adverts and maybe they're a little bit tempted, what are the maybe things they should be looking out for that they should be suspicious of and what research should they go and do beforehand before committing?
Speaker B:It's interesting because it's very basic, isn't it really?
Speaker B:If you fundamentally break down your health into the four pillars, which is lifestyle.
Speaker B:So that's stress reduction, sleep, hygiene, avoiding booze, looking at your diet, the obvious things, low carb, high fat, looking at your micronutrient status and things like vitamin D, omega 3, zinc, those sorts of things that will help facilitate testosterone production and then looking at your exercise.
Speaker B:But understanding that exercise can be counterproductive when it comes to testosterone because if you over exercise, that's going to have a predominance of cortisol, which means testosterone is going to drop.
Speaker B:And then mindset as well.
Speaker B:Mindset is key.
Speaker B:You know, there's a, there's a reason why we have a placebo effect and it actually has a positive impact on physiology.
Speaker B:But again, you can't out think your physiology.
Speaker B:So it's looking to the, the fundamentals of general overall health and then looking to do your research.
Speaker B:Now this, this is where the problem lies because there's very limited research, research out there.
Speaker B:Now there are British Society for Sexual Medicine guidelines on testosterone deficiency.
Speaker B:You know, the Society for Endocrinology have guidelines, but what they don't cross is the clinical to the human side, which is where wonderful marketing comes in.
Speaker B:Are you tired?
Speaker B:Of course I'm tired.
Speaker B:So you might have testosterone deficiency and again, I could list you the symptoms and signs of testosterone deficiency and they'd all feel very impersonal and they'd all feel very relatable in the same breath, but you're none the wiser are you?
Speaker B:Because if I said, again, going back to that example of fatigue, there are a hundred causes of fatigue.
Speaker B:Brain fog.
Speaker B:I still get brain fog.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm on testosterone.
Speaker B:Well, why do I get brain fog?
Speaker B:Well, I've had a bad night's sleep.
Speaker B:I haven't eaten properly, I haven't crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's with the things that I know I need to do to feel optimal.
Speaker B:And again, it's about not taking the path of least resistance, even though it's seductive.
Speaker B:Again, marketing's wonderful from the fact that it can lead you down a path, but it's about leading you down the correct path, not the full sell.
Speaker B:And I think one of the reasons why people like podcasts is because we're actually having a proper conversation.
Speaker B:When I talk to you about my, my YouTube video and I'm looking at my iPhone, I'm talking, I'm talking to myself.
Speaker B:But the listener or the, or the viewer thinks I'm talking to them, which is where that level of empathy comes in.
Speaker B:And I think that's incredibly important.
Speaker B:So I think you can tell whether there's a level of authenticity in, in some of these people telling you that testosterone is going to make you feel 10 years younger.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And the stories that we put out are put out by real patients who have been under my care and supervision for years.
Speaker B:You know, not just, I've just jumped on testosterone.
Speaker B:I've been paid this much by that company to promote testosterone.
Speaker B:We don't do that.
Speaker B:You know, it's about providing a level of authenticity so the person can go, right, okay, that, that feels right.
Speaker B:And I think one of the problems is we've lost our ability to trust our instincts and we're oversaturated and overstimulated with information.
Speaker B:And there's so much we can't critically appraise it.
Speaker B:So we're going, if I tell you X a thousand times, but Y is the correct answer, well, it must be X.
Speaker B:Again, we're susceptible to basic psychological techniques and these marketing companies are absolutely rinsing the neck out of it to say, well, you must have testosterone deficiency.
Speaker B:And it's like, well, hold on.
Speaker A:That incredibly generalized diagnosis style of, are you tired?
Speaker A:It must be that.
Speaker A:And I see that a lot with stuff like anxiety and depression as well.
Speaker A:And I think there's been a massive surge of people self diagnosing themselves with these things and ADHD because you see these TikTok videos where it's like, are you tired?
Speaker A:All the time.
Speaker A:Can you.
Speaker A:Do you forget the words you're trying to say?
Speaker A:Do whatever's next.
Speaker A:And they're really general things that like you say, could have a hundred answers why that's happening.
Speaker A:But then people are like, I must have adhd, I must have low testosterone.
Speaker A:So I suppose that general marketing is something to look out for.
Speaker A:And then if there's no further investigation before they're willing to put you on something, something, maybe that's a sign to be like, hold on a minute, maybe I need a proper look at this.
Speaker B:I mean it's fascinating.
Speaker B:Is it?
Speaker B:Because, I mean when we do the comprehensive blood test and, and I advise somebody that, no, what you need to do is this.
Speaker B:Look at your vitamin D. Look at your, your sleep hygiene.
Speaker B:Sounds like you might have sleep apnea or go for a sleep study first.
Speaker B:You know, I sometimes think that are they going to be disappointed that I'm not going to tell them that they need testosterone replacement therapy.
Speaker B:But invariably the case.
Speaker B:Thank you, doctor.
Speaker B:And it's like, okay, good.
Speaker B:And say, well you know, that's, that's a lost customer for me.
Speaker B:So obviously it's a patient for me, not customer.
Speaker B:And I think I've done what I should do and had a level of authenticity and gone by my ethics versus sell, sell, sell.
Speaker B:And think, well that's stupid, I should be, I should be making money out of these people.
Speaker B:But I'm a doctor, you know, I'm, I'm not in it to make money.
Speaker B:I'm in it to serve the patient in front of me.
Speaker B:And from a business perspective, because we are a private clinic, that, that's gold.
Speaker B:Because that patient that I said, what you need to do is this, they go and go, go speak to Rob.
Speaker B:Yeah, he'll tell you the truth.
Speaker B:And it's like, so it's building trust, building trust.
Speaker B:And it's that long term relationship that we have with our patients.
Speaker B:There's golden.
Speaker B:Testosterone replacement therapy is a lifelong therapy or should at least be considered a lifelong therapy.
Speaker B:So again, you need to build up that level of trust.
Speaker B:And it's not always a simple journey, which is why you have to trust your doctor.
Speaker B:Not a bot that says when you do this, this happens, when you do that, that happens.
Speaker B:Because it's far more complicated than that.
Speaker A:Obviously a large part of it as well.
Speaker A:And as we spoke about last time, it's a lifelong journey is something that you are gonna be around then going forward unless you come off it.
Speaker A:But part of that is involving follow ups and check ins and Rechecking where people are at and just making sure that we're doing it effectively and it's working.
Speaker A:Do you have any insight into how those companies are?
Speaker A:Are they doing any check ins or is it just once they've got it, that's it?
Speaker A:And what makes it good?
Speaker B:Follow up.
Speaker B:Yeah, they are following patients up.
Speaker B:What they're doing is they're following algorithms.
Speaker B:So if this says this, you do this, and physiology is more complicated than that.
Speaker B:So I'll give you a prime example which will probably bore the listeners, but essentially if they're raised hematocrit, you know, there are lots of causes of a raised hematocrit, so dehydration, obstructive sleep, apnoea, et cetera.
Speaker B:But on testosterone placement therapy, if your hematocrite creeps up above a certain level, that's a contraindication.
Speaker B:So you must stop.
Speaker B:There's like, no, you must speak to your patient to find out why the hematocrit is elevated.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So you go, right, okay, well I've spoken to the patient where you were dehydrated.
Speaker B:Okay, you need to X, Y, Z.
Speaker B:So it's very algorithm, algorithm driven, but it's not in the best interest of the patient because they don't know their patient and they don't have the understanding of their patient's personalized needs.
Speaker B:I did a podcast yesterday with a patient who's been under my care for five years and we're talking about his initial start and how flat he was.
Speaker B:And he said in, in the initial conversation, he said, yeah, I just not, I haven't been out my skateboard for years.
Speaker B:And so like five years later in this podcast that I did with him, I said, I remember you said about you, you've not been out on your skateboard.
Speaker B:And we had a laugh about how the hell did you remember that?
Speaker B:It's because I know you.
Speaker B:Yeah, we, we have a relationship that transcends an algorithm.
Speaker B:You know, I can act in your best interest because I know you as a person and as obviously a patient.
Speaker A:There's human connection that you don't get, but priceless.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:When we look at the stuff we've spoken about on the landscape, the current landscape of low testosterone, how do you, as both a person and a clinic, stop yourself becoming the thing that you criticize?
Speaker B:I mean, I've had the privilege of sitting in front of 5,000 plus patients and I've, I've been with them at the start of their journeys and I'm still with them on their current Journeys and some of those journeys have been going from.
Speaker B: From: Speaker B:So 10 years now.
Speaker B:So I have quite a deep understanding of what's needed and the similarities in every single story.
Speaker B:So whilst subjectively to that person sat across from me, it's very serious and very personal and I have the privilege of having a level of objectivity which allows me to be considered in how I converse with that patient to try and get them to do what I need them to do.
Speaker B:It's super challenging, it's super stressful.
Speaker B:But ultimately the reward is incredible because, you know, I've had patients very humbly say that they wouldn't be here without me and I don't know how to.
Speaker B:I don't know how to deal with that.
Speaker B:But it's.
Speaker A:How do you deal with it?
Speaker B:With difficulty.
Speaker B:It's hard.
Speaker B:Quite an in depth understanding of philosophy now and again.
Speaker B:It's been a rite of passage.
Speaker B:So a lot of Carl Jung, Nietzsche, massive fan of Adam Watts and ironically, my favorite quote comes from a comedian, Bill Hicks, about one consciousness.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I wrestle with consciousness all the time because just to try and understand where people have come from and how I can best help them.
Speaker B:It's difficult, but it wasn't supposed to be easy.
Speaker A:No, you're helping these people through the hardest moment of their life, potentially.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it's a big thing to comprehend.
Speaker A:And when they say that to you, it puts a lot of.
Speaker A:Yeah, it brings it into real life.
Speaker A:Something that you maybe hadn't really thought about.
Speaker A:Suddenly you're faced with the enormity of what you've actually been through.
Speaker B:It is immense.
Speaker B:And I keep going back to sort of these philosophers and the irony of a comedian saying the most poignant, profound comment I've ever heard.
Speaker B:But it's, it's, it's about concentrating on the moment.
Speaker B:And again, it's Roger Kipling's poem, isn't it?
Speaker B:If, you know, if he can meet triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same.
Speaker B:I think life, Life is challenging.
Speaker B:Life is supposed to be challenging.
Speaker B:I just sometimes think you need a bit of support.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What support mechanisms do you use to deal with that?
Speaker B:Gin?
Speaker B:Oh, again, an understanding of philosophy and my place here in this world.
Speaker B:Concentrating on the moment, as I've said already, getting out into nature.
Speaker B:Yeah, literally.
Speaker B:And outside of the obvious things like human connection, my two German shepherds.
Speaker B:It's getting out into nature where life is real.
Speaker B:You know, we, we do lots of hikes, you know, the fan dance.
Speaker B:We're doing 100km in next week, three marathons back to back, the North Atlantic coast, push pushing myself, um, with the awareness that the.
Speaker B:The hardship and the effort is the reward, not.
Speaker B:Not the destination.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:On the topic of reward, you mentioned it earlier and we spoke about it last time.
Speaker A:Those three words that you use earn your reward.
Speaker A:What makes those three words so poignant to you?
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's all it's about.
Speaker B:I think that comfort that we're all seeking is an illusion.
Speaker B:I think the determined effort that you decide to put in is the key to your future, your current and future happiness.
Speaker B:This happiness thing is an illusionary concept.
Speaker A:When I spoke to Dakota meyer, who's a U.S. marine veteran who receives a medal of Honor in Afghanistan, he said to me that happiness is a choice.
Speaker A:He said, happiness is.
Speaker A:You can choose to be happy in a moment.
Speaker A:You don't have a choice in the situation you're in, but the angle you take towards it.
Speaker A:And obviously there's going to be times where happiness isn't an option necessarily.
Speaker A:But I think on the topic of the comfort that we're all chasing as well, Oliver Bergman talked a lot about that and the idea that we've got this endless to do list and as soon as we get it all to the bottom, we're done and we're gonna sit back on the beach with a cup of dinner.
Speaker A:Maybe not tea on the beach, but.
Speaker A:But yeah, you're just done.
Speaker A:And it's like there's.
Speaker A:You're never done.
Speaker A:There's always gonna be something.
Speaker A:And I think once you realize that, you can start to come to terms with it.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think happiness is the wrong word.
Speaker B:I think I want a level of contentment with my current situation.
Speaker B:I want to keep striving to be a better version of myself, and I want to find joy in the moment.
Speaker B:And I think men with testosterone deficiency have lost their joy.
Speaker B:Men on testosterone replacement therapy with a victim mentality don't have joy.
Speaker B:Ultimately, it's all down to you how you perceive a challenge, whether you see it as an opportunity or a threat.
Speaker B:And I think that in itself is a challenge in this world.
Speaker B:But it's enjoying the silly things.
Speaker B:Singing in the shower.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, watch.
Speaker B:Watching a sunrise, watching a sunset.
Speaker B:Cheesy, but just.
Speaker B:Just appreciating every aspect of.
Speaker B:Of where you are right now.
Speaker B:Good, bad, indifferent, ugly, whatever.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker B:Just be fully present in the moment.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I was singing in the car on the way up.
Speaker A:Two hours.
Speaker B:But what were you singing for?
Speaker A:All sorts of hide the Killers on Dermot Kennedy, if you know him.
Speaker A:Bit more laid back, but it's good to warm up the voice.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:In terms of yourself and you mentioned about the challenges that you've got coming up.
Speaker A:What is it that those challenges give you?
Speaker A:Things like the 100k walk and the three marathons back to back.
Speaker B:We're really doing that just for the crack.
Speaker B:And the reason why we're doing the 100km and the three marathons back to back is not because it's 100km and three marathons back to back, but they're both on the coast, they're both immersed in nature, they're both difficult.
Speaker B:They're both gonna take a level of fortitude and will and determination to do.
Speaker B:And there will be moments, I know that I will say I, I want to give up, but I won't 100%.
Speaker B:I never.
Speaker A:And you, you build stronger connections to those people that you're doing it with as well.
Speaker A:You go through those tougher moments with them.
Speaker A:Do you feel like you come out the other side with better connections to those people?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, 100%.
Speaker B:We've got, we've got a super strong team behind us and we're all like, mind.
Speaker B:And again, I think it's about building that, that like minded community because I think, I think it's Freddie Nietzsche.
Speaker B:One of the biggest mistakes of mankind is, is to believe that your reality is the only reality.
Speaker B:But in the same breath, you, there's a comfort in the community.
Speaker B:So if you can find a group of people who are like minded with that same positive attitude, know, do or die, then you know, it, it gives you some strength.
Speaker B:Somebody's always behind you or somebody's next to you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Or in front.
Speaker B:Like Lydia, she'll be in front leading the way.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You're only.
Speaker A:Your reality is not the only reality.
Speaker A:And funnily enough, that just made me think of Dermot Kennedy.
Speaker A:He's a singer, songwriter, but he named his album previously Sonder.
Speaker A:I don't know if you know that word.
Speaker A:So I, I didn't know it before and I looked it up and it's that moment of realization when you realize that everyone else is living their own life and you are just a part in their life.
Speaker A:Because we only ever live our life.
Speaker A:And it's so difficult to suddenly go, hold on a minute.
Speaker A:Every person you walk past in the street, that person who you saw drop their plastic bag of like shopping and you went, oh, that's awkward.
Speaker A:And they just walked on.
Speaker A:They're living their own life.
Speaker A:You have no idea what they're going through.
Speaker B:It always trips me out when we go to London and I see everybody just hustling and bustling around and getting on with their lives.
Speaker B:And again, yeah, it goes that they're all leading a completely separate, unique life to the life you're leading.
Speaker B:And again, making that example of that lady that dropped her shopping, you know, go pick it up for her, you know.
Speaker B:And I think, again, not to.
Speaker B:Not to quote too many people, but Aldous Huxley, we talked about, and he'd studied the human mind psyche for 45 years.
Speaker B:And the embarrassing part of the only conclusion he could come to was, we should have been more kind.
Speaker B:That was insane.
Speaker A:Yeah, but.
Speaker A:But it's so true.
Speaker A:And it doesn't take a lot.
Speaker A:It takes that little gesture.
Speaker A:Yeah, I saw that.
Speaker A:I don't know if you've seen that video crop up of the.
Speaker A:There was a marathon runner, I think it was, and he's collapsing about, yeah.
Speaker A:200 Meters from the finish.
Speaker A:Everyone's running past him.
Speaker A:They've watched their film.
Speaker A:He falls over about three or four times before two guys stop and help him.
Speaker A:It's like, is it really that important to you to run past someone who just keeps falling over?
Speaker A:And it's.
Speaker A:Yeah, like, say London and all the big cities where people are just head down on their journey.
Speaker B:But it's also reassuring, isn't it?
Speaker B:Because again, you know, we're all locked up in our own brains with all of these illusionary kind of problems that we've got.
Speaker B:And the only thing that really matters is right now, in this very moment.
Speaker B:And if you.
Speaker B:If you then think about that, you.
Speaker B:Same, same thing.
Speaker B:All your things that you're secretly worrying about, it's like we're illusionary and everybody.
Speaker B:All these illusory problems, it's like, come.
Speaker B:What.
Speaker B:Why do we manifest all this nonsense when the only thing that matters is.
Speaker B:Is right now?
Speaker B:It's quite.
Speaker B:It's quite perverse.
Speaker A:Yeah, it is.
Speaker A:And a lot of the time, we can't do anything to change those things.
Speaker A:If we're thinking about a event that's coming up, okay, what we can do is train.
Speaker A:But if you've trained as best as you can, there's nothing more you can do like worrying about that whilst you're trying to do an interview or have a conversation.
Speaker A:You're not in the room, you're not present and whatever it is.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I definitely try and be more present now and try and be honest and think about whether I can actually.
Speaker A:Whether that when those little worries do come up, because they do, it'd be weird not to.
Speaker A:To go, okay, let's assess it.
Speaker A:Let's not just cram it away, but let's look at it and go, can I do anything right now?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Lol.
Speaker A:Maybe set a reminder for later when I can.
Speaker B:You have to check yourself every once in a while.
Speaker B:So I know when I'm starting to get a little bit anxious and wound up that I go, oh, I'm starting to feel.
Speaker B:And I go, hold on.
Speaker B:And I have this wonderful breath and I go, okay, it's okay.
Speaker B:You know, it's all about the breath.
Speaker B:It's all about just coming back to the present.
Speaker A:Yeah, I just want to jump back into.
Speaker A:Obviously we're talking about earn your rewards and that responsibility element of it.
Speaker A:And the men that are jumping on trt.
Speaker A:Is there an element of it, do you think, where people are jumping on TRT in a way of avoiding the responsibility, avoiding the hard work?
Speaker B:There's a flippancy to a lot of people starting testosterone replacement therapy, believing that it's going to do all those things promised without the necessity for effort.
Speaker B:You know, is it gonna give you muscles?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Is it going to make you soup?
Speaker B:No, it's.
Speaker B:It's about delivering realistic expectations.
Speaker B:And I think that's fundamentally the problem with social media, is it.
Speaker B:It doesn't deliver realism.
Speaker B:It delivers what you want it to deliver, which is what you wanted to deliver.
Speaker B:It's confirmation bias 101, isn't it?
Speaker B:And I think that's the problem.
Speaker B:There isn't that level of realism.
Speaker B:And we've done our very best to deliver that level of realism because, you know, our patients don't go anywhere.
Speaker B:Our patients stay with us because, you know, what you see is, what you get is tough love.
Speaker B:But it's love that's going to allow you to take that next step forwards on tough love.
Speaker A:How do you balance that, that balance of being honest and maybe brutal at times about what they need to do to help themselves versus being kind enough to not put them off or anything like that?
Speaker B:Well, if you want somebody to be nice to you, go see Sean.
Speaker B:If you want.
Speaker B:If you, if you want somebody to give it how it is, come and see me.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm joking, I'm joking.
Speaker A:Honestly,.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's tough love, baby.
Speaker B:Where have all those platitudes got you?
Speaker B:Where's all the sympathy got you?
Speaker B:It's got you nowhere, hasn't it?
Speaker B:So, you know, again, 5,000 plus patients, I've seen tens if not hundreds of thousands of patients in my 30 year career.
Speaker B:You get reasonably good of reading people and then understanding what they need as opposed to what they want.
Speaker B:And if you're keeping that in the back of your mind when you're speaking to somebody, you can be empathetic as opposed to bullish and deliver them what they need, not what they want without it being this dictate, dictatorial, kind of like, you must do this.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I've sometimes given patients a complete wake up call.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And been super harsh and nine times out of ten they've said thank you.
Speaker B:Nobody's ever spoke to me like that.
Speaker B:We needed it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Sometimes people need it but I've got.
Speaker B:That relationship with the patients that I just walk in and go, it's like you, you really need take a step at me and otherwise you're going to be in trouble.
Speaker A:Brain fog.
Speaker B:It's the, it's the weirdness of this situation, isn't it?
Speaker B:Because whilst it's an authentic conversation, it's in an artificial situation.
Speaker B:And again, you know that, that human connection part that you know, we're all striving for this, this is almost, it's almost, it's alien to that.
Speaker B:Then we should be sat around a campfire, shouldn't we?
Speaker B:You know, cooking a ribeye steak, having the same conversation.
Speaker B:Not with microphones, lighting and somebody sat over there making sure everything's going okay.
Speaker B:It's like it's again it's, it's, it's, it's artificial but it's as real as it can be.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I suppose the only way to make it more so would be to someone secretly film and record around that campfire.
Speaker B:Well listen, we've bought 10 acres of partial and in, in Dogberry near Dorchester and that's what we've done.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So we've got two fire pits, one fire pit on the top and you can see all the Dorset Dales and we're having like sort of mental health chats around, around a fire where we're having a ribeye steak and we've got like another shelter underneath for a full more wintery kind of talks to again bring, bring that level of realism to the conversation.
Speaker A:Have you started doing that?
Speaker B:Those?
Speaker B:Yeah, I did one with stars few weeks ago but we've, we've just been built, building the place.
Speaker B:So yeah, it's pretty much ready to, ready to go.
Speaker A:How is that one received?
Speaker B:Yeah, very well.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because again it wasn't structured.
Speaker B:It was, it was just authentic and we put the World to rights.
Speaker B:And I think, I think you can do that in a more real setting, because there isn't that.
Speaker B:I've got.
Speaker B:There's a camera there.
Speaker B:Yeah, you don't.
Speaker B:It's not quite as.
Speaker B:It's not disingenuous, is it?
Speaker B:But it's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:Again, there's always that awareness that I'm on camera.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Don't.
Speaker B:Don't say anything too crazy because, you know, people are watching and it's like, men are pretty poor at communicating, and I think that's one of the, One of the problems.
Speaker B:Don't say the wrong thing.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, I think, yeah, men are.
Speaker A:We see these messages of, men need to talk, men should talk, and then we don't really give them the space to talk or the means to and expect that the same way women might speak is the same way men want to speak.
Speaker A:And there's a lot around therapy in the style of sitting down with a therapist and talking.
Speaker A:And it will work for some people, but it won't work for a lot of people.
Speaker A:And those campfire settings are often a lot better for people.
Speaker A:I spoke to Martin Siegel on the podcast, who was a clinical psychologist and did a lot of work and studies around men's mental health, and he spoke about how when men speak, say, in a men's group or around a campfire is very common, and it's almost better in a way to let them speak about whatever they're speaking about.
Speaker A:It might be quite a banal conversation.
Speaker A:It might be about football, it might be about what's been going on in whatever sport.
Speaker A:And then suddenly a little bit of mental health will creep in and it will just be natural.
Speaker A:It won't be forced.
Speaker A:Like when you sit down in a therapy room and they go, unpack your emotions.
Speaker B:Tell me about your childhood.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's like I was watching the football with my son the other day.
Speaker A:Oh, how's your.
Speaker A:How's that getting.
Speaker A:I'm like, what's your relationship with him like?
Speaker A:It's not the best at the minute, but.
Speaker A:And then it goes into those slightly deeper conversations and then it goes back to it.
Speaker A:And he was like, that's normal.
Speaker B:Just.
Speaker B:It should be organic.
Speaker B:And I think that that's.
Speaker B:That's the problem, isn't it?
Speaker B:You know, we've got an hour to talk about your mental health.
Speaker B:It's like, go.
Speaker B:You're not going to get the best out of somebody in an hour's drop check time where you need to talk about your childhood and Your relationships.
Speaker B:And okay, this is what we need to do because, you know, as, as we've said, you know, men are poor at communicating and I think it goes back to the sort of the, the masculine versus feminine and obviously masculine dopamine and reward.
Speaker B:So, you know, I, I should be doing something.
Speaker B:And then the feminine is more the communication, the empathy and the understanding.
Speaker B:But there's always that blend of the masculine and feminine.
Speaker B:So if you can be doing something primal, like sat around a campfire with a ribeye steak or going on a hike, doing something masculine, but bringing the feminine in to allow you to be able to communicate more effectively than just sat there going, talk to me about your emotions.
Speaker B:It's like, geez, I'm a man.
Speaker B:Can we, can we do something to allow me to release a little bit of that feminine?
Speaker B:Because this is uncomfortable.
Speaker A:And the bonus for something like a walk or a hike or even driving in a car is you're not got that eye contact.
Speaker A:If you sit down, look me in the eyes and tell me what you're feeling in your deepest thoughts, you're not.
Speaker B:Going to do it.
Speaker A:But if we're walking and we're both facing the same way and we looking out at the sunset and then we start to talk about stuff, it's a lot easier to open up because you're not getting that we're scared of the judgment of what we're going to say.
Speaker A:You don't see a reaction.
Speaker A:And if we really were honest, we're probably not going to see a reaction anyway.
Speaker A:If you did look at someone.
Speaker A:But it's that fear of the reaction that you sort of avoid in that way.
Speaker B:Yeah, totally.
Speaker A:With the things we discussed and the way you guys do your work at your clinic, obviously it's very patient focused.
Speaker A:You build up these good relationships.
Speaker B:Not customer.
Speaker A:Not customer focused.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:So you build up these relationships with these people over time and quite often they may come to you in quite a dark point of their life.
Speaker A:They might be struggling with certain things.
Speaker A:How do you balance that?
Speaker A:The care versus boundaries sort of experience?
Speaker B:So when I was a gp, a GP registrar, all the partners were thrilled.
Speaker B:There's a GP registrar who really cares.
Speaker B:And it's like, so you would get all of these patients and you'd get all these heart sync patients.
Speaker B:Who are the patients that nobody can help, right?
Speaker B:And you'd be sat there and you'd be going, oh, Mrs. Mrs. Thing, she likes me.
Speaker B:Or Mr. X, he.
Speaker B:I think, I think we're getting on, we're bonding.
Speaker B:And you'd have these conversations and you'd be going, yes, I'm really getting through to that patient.
Speaker B:And then over time, you realize that you're not solving anything.
Speaker B:You're just.
Speaker B:You're just a sounding board for somebody that doesn't want to get fixed.
Speaker B:So then you learn over time, whether that be months or years, that actually what you should be giving that patient is a level of objectivity, not the continued empathy and kind of offloading victim, kind of like relationship that some people seem to like to propagate and go, right, okay, well, how can I actually help that patient as opposed to be their friend?
Speaker B:So again, we have, like, a very paternalistic relationship with clinician versus patient that's almost blended into a therapist.
Speaker B:But then you have to go, well, that therapist thing isn't working.
Speaker B:I need to step it back and go a little bit more doctor patient.
Speaker B:But that comes through experience, because then we all want to be liked.
Speaker B:We all want to be respected.
Speaker B:But you only get that real respect with.
Speaker B:With a set.
Speaker B:With a length.
Speaker B:With a length of.
Speaker B:I'm not sure the word is.
Speaker B:You only get that respect when the outcomes are positive.
Speaker B:And, you know, you're not a sounding board for all their problems.
Speaker B:You're there to try and help them overcome their problems.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:You're getting them the results.
Speaker A:You're being honest and you're being kind to them, not necessarily nice to them.
Speaker A:And a lot of people think they're the same thing.
Speaker A:Kindness and niceness.
Speaker A:I think to be kind, sometimes, like you said, you have to be honest, and you might have to tell them how you see it because they've not responded to the other one.
Speaker A:So you treat it like a sort of sliding scale, I suppose, don't you?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's a skill that you learn through mistakes.
Speaker A:What appeals to people.
Speaker A:Do you think you mentioned about that?
Speaker A:People sort of don't want to get fixed almost sometimes.
Speaker A:What appeals to people about that side of things?
Speaker A:Like, why would they want to be stuck in that?
Speaker B:There's comfort in purgatory, which is perverse, isn't it?
Speaker B:But change is always.
Speaker B:Is often difficult and takes effort from a.
Speaker B:From a physiological perspective, from a testosterone deficiency perspective, it's testosterone and dopamine and.
Speaker B:And estrogen, serotonin.
Speaker B:So it's.
Speaker B:So it's the.
Speaker B:There's the hormones and the neurotransmitters.
Speaker B:But, you know, again, we've.
Speaker B:We're very reluctant to change because there is that level of, you know, familiarity.
Speaker B:Yeah, there's a familiarity in how I feel.
Speaker B:And it might, it might not be how I want to feel, but I'm, I'm familiar with it.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Scary to step outside of that because you don't know what's on the other side.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:But as I've spoken to many people, that's where the growth happens, is when you take that first step.
Speaker A:And I'm a big advocate for doing what interests you and like going back to being present earlier.
Speaker A:If you start to feel disconnected with what you're doing, whether that's a job, whether it's a hobby, potentially relationship, as long as you've fully investigated the reasons behind that and made sure it's not just a bad night's sleep or whatever, go to something else.
Speaker A:And the way that I look at this in my own life is when I've changed sports.
Speaker A:Growing up, I was very lucky to do a lot of sports.
Speaker A:And as I started to get older, you sort of go into one sport more because of time.
Speaker A:So I was playing football, I was getting so many injuries, and I started picking up tennis again from my childhood and I started really enjoying that.
Speaker A:And so I dropped out of football to put more time into tennis, started doing that, really enjoying it, and then I sort of stopped enjoying it and then I started jiu jitsu.
Speaker A:So maybe it's just me and maybe I just, I just flip flop between things, but I wouldn't have known if I'd have enjoyed those things if I didn't try them.
Speaker A:And by trying them and going on that journey, I can then go, okay, that's one more thing that I didn't enjoy.
Speaker A:For that reason, I can try something else.
Speaker B:I think it's interesting because we say that with a level of flippancy and assurance that a lot of people don't have because they haven't got those behaviors in place, whether that be from.
Speaker B:From the past, you know, or near presentation.
Speaker B:A lot of people are really struggling and say, well, what you should do is you should jump in an ice bath.
Speaker B:You should start doing a hobby that you enjoyed back in the day.
Speaker B:It's like some of these people, they struggle to get out the house.
Speaker B:And it's like, it's about achievable goals and again, building on little wins, not these wonderful, I'm going to do three marathons and October.
Speaker B:It's like, huh?
Speaker B:But it's like to some people that, that's absurd if they can't even get out of the house.
Speaker B:But that's what you need to do.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's like, it's how to, it's how to get that person out the house.
Speaker B:And I think that that's where the challenge lies because again, you can listen to all the podcasts and all these motivational speakers and it's like, yeah, you should do that.
Speaker B:And it's like some of these, these people are stuck in this awful purgatorial state and they, they really cannot see the wood for the trees.
Speaker B:And it's just defining very, very basic little goals, building on those little wins, then go, perhaps I can.
Speaker B:Yeah, give them a bit of hope.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think that's perhaps where the abundance of podcasts and online content and everything like you mentioned earlier, being fired us, all this information is so difficult to comprehend because in that moment you just need one small action.
Speaker A:And I spoke in my last episode, I did a solo episode on sort of.
Speaker A:I'm two years into the podcast.
Speaker A:I probably have more questions about the world now than I did before, which is a good thing.
Speaker A:But also you sort of expect in a way that you're going to find answers and learn more things, but the more you learn, the harder it is to take more on.
Speaker A:And I think with a lot of self help and self improvement stuff and all these books, you can read and consume it all and not do any action on it.
Speaker A:You just go from book to book and as you're reading it, you think, oh, that's really good.
Speaker A:I should really.
Speaker A:That breath work thing, I'm gonna try that.
Speaker A:And you keep going, you get to the end of the book, like, which is the next one you pick up the next one, your podcast, whichever it is.
Speaker A:And so I try and relay that to the listener.
Speaker A:To just take one thing from something if it's a small action and just implement one thing.
Speaker A:You don't have to implement all these things in one.
Speaker A:It's impossible to.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:With Jay Morton, One of the X22 guys that gave a talk, and somebody in the audience asked, how do I start building resilience?
Speaker B:And it's like, from what place?
Speaker B:Where are you?
Speaker B:And it's like, you know, do.
Speaker B:What do you say to say, well, okay, go down, go down to the sea and go sit and sit in the water for a bit.
Speaker B:But even that might be too much for somebody, again, from, from their subjective experience might be like, oh, that's too much.
Speaker B:It's your journey.
Speaker B:And again, you know, as you say, take actions, let your behaviors impact your emotions, because emotions often blunt adventures.
Speaker B:And it's like, do it.
Speaker B:Take that next step forwards.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:With the connections to patients that we've spoken about.
Speaker A:Do you ever feel responsible for these people more than what is medically reasonable?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'd like.
Speaker B:Not soon.
Speaker B:I'd like to be a sociopath.
Speaker B:That'd be wicked.
Speaker B:That'd be so, so great.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker B:Because I guess I'm gonna.
Speaker B:I'm gonna.
Speaker B:Gonna say the quote.
Speaker B:We know.
Speaker B:I think we're all one consciously, we're all one consciousness experiencing itself.
Speaker B:So I want to help my patients and I can.
Speaker B:I can sometimes see how much they're struggling.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:It's heartbreaking, but it's all about, again, delivering realistic expectations and a level of empathy and not sympathy in the correct way.
Speaker B:So I can hopefully impact a positive change.
Speaker B:But there's a massive sense of responsibility that it's hard.
Speaker A:Yeah, it is one of the hardest things when people are struggling who you care about, because I think you'll agree when someone is struggling, you can support them, but the only person that can really make the change and get out of it is them, is that person.
Speaker A:So you've got to get to a point where you've accepted that and you'll be there for them.
Speaker A:You can support them, but it's got to be them.
Speaker A:And that's.
Speaker A:It's one of the hardest things to come.
Speaker A:Come around to when it's someone that you love or someone you care for, because you want to just pull them out, but you can't.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker B:It's their journey.
Speaker B:And I think I sometimes have to take a check of myself as well, because I'm.
Speaker B:I'm not, you know, Superman.
Speaker B:So I, I'm sometimes struggling and I think, right, I'm trying to support somebody that's struggling.
Speaker B:When I'm struggling, who the hell is going to help me?
Speaker B:It's like, no problem.
Speaker B:And I know when I'm tired and I need a break, it's.
Speaker B:It's when I. I feel like everybody's just taking from me.
Speaker B:And so I've.
Speaker B:I've come to realize that when I'm.
Speaker B:When I'm getting to that stage in, in the day, week, month, year, whatever, it's like, just get a check of yourself, Rob, because you've got to look after yourself and lead by example.
Speaker B:And you think somebody's drawing from you constantly.
Speaker B:It's like, I've got to protect myself.
Speaker B:But that's.
Speaker B:That's quite challenging.
Speaker B:As an empath, as I, as I, as I believe I kind of.
Speaker B:I am.
Speaker A:What are the signs you look out for when you're getting to that point.
Speaker A:What will make you go, I need to check myself and have a breather.
Speaker B:I'm getting irritable and frustrated with everything.
Speaker B:Nobody's trying to irritate you, you know, nobody's deliberately trying to wind you up.
Speaker B:But when I get tired, I'm going, sam, what, what?
Speaker B:You know, you, are you really trying to.
Speaker B:And it's like, of course not.
Speaker B:You know, and I, I think that's, that's the time when I realized that when I think somebody's deliberately trying to irritate me, you know, we're all doing the best we can.
Speaker B:You know, it, it might not seem that way, but we're all really trying to do the best that we can.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:It's just interesting to hear because obviously everyone has different signs that will come up for them, like there'll be different people.
Speaker A:For me, I'd just be like, I suppose irritability is a slightly one.
Speaker A:It's like just that not being able to think about anything.
Speaker A:Whatever you're doing in the moment, I can't think about it because I'm thinking about all these other things and I'm knackered and I'm worried about how I'm going to get through the next few days if I carry on this way.
Speaker A:So it's like a, that check in is so important, but it only comes with experience.
Speaker A:I think it's something that is very difficult to just listen to us talk about it and implement it if you've never got to the point of being fully drained.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think again, we're all utterly invincible when we're younger.
Speaker B:And then you get knocked on your ass and go, I pick myself up.
Speaker B:And then your body gives you hundreds, thousands of chances to do the right thing and eventually it sort of goes wrong.
Speaker B:You know, we're done now.
Speaker B:So I think it's, It's challenging.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's supposed to be.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker A:That's part of it.
Speaker A:When we look at the male health and wellness space, obviously testosterone is part of it, but other things like you've mentioned, like cold plunges, peptides, all this optimization, blood work, like frequent blood work, and these are all good things in a way, but there's a level where it becomes neurotic and it's too much.
Speaker A:Do you think it's, do you think that optimization sphere is a good thing or do you think it is making people over optimize and become almost anxious about it?
Speaker B:Oh, back in the day when I, I was bright, fresh and whatever, you know, healthy Diet, you don't need supplements.
Speaker B:And it's like, yeah, because, yeah, that should be super easy.
Speaker B:But when you take a step back and go, well, that avocado that I'm eating, that's super healthy, was plucked from the tree before I had time to take the nutrients from the soil.
Speaker B:And there's the sun, allow it to ripen.
Speaker B:We do need these optimization tools, but not in place of the fundamentals.
Speaker B:And I think again, something shiny.
Speaker B:Oh, go to something shiny.
Speaker B:We always start with the fundamentals and then test the optimization things with the fundamentals in place.
Speaker B:That's, that's the key.
Speaker B:You know, peptides, geez, they're, they're, they're massively overhyped.
Speaker B:They're just a.
Speaker B:Chains of amino acids.
Speaker B:And again, your body would naturally produce that peptide in the appropriate amount of time to heal the body.
Speaker B:But you're then subjecting the body towards all these other things and not resting.
Speaker B:So you give it a whole load of this amino acid to help facilitate that repair.
Speaker A:And it seems like the next just money grabbing thing, like after.
Speaker A:So you've got BCAs, which was maybe 10 years ago, were massive.
Speaker A:They sort of faded away.
Speaker A:And it's another thing where suddenly all these companies that didn't sell them a couple of years ago are starting to produce.
Speaker A:And it's like, that's always a sign to me.
Speaker A:It's like this and stuff like that.
Speaker A:It's all these.
Speaker A:This is your answer to everything.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's it, it goes back to if, if it sounds too good to be true, guess what?
Speaker B:It's too good to be true.
Speaker B:It's absurd.
Speaker B:They, they can be tools to help facilitate repair and whatever you want to use it for, if it's that particular purpose.
Speaker B:But they don't substitute the fundamentals.
Speaker A:So we've stopped, think we stopped listening to our bodies.
Speaker A:It's like we started, we trust all this stuff.
Speaker A:People are going to chat GBT for advice and trusting it with their life and then taking action on it.
Speaker A:They're like, the watch is in our wrist.
Speaker A:So we trust what this says about our night's sleep over what we feel.
Speaker A:And for me, one of the best things I did was take off the morning report.
Speaker A:So on Garmin, you get this thing pop up every morning that goes, this is how you slept, this is how much energy you have today, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker A:And if I, if I woke up feeling all right, I'd be like, right, let's have a look.
Speaker A:And it would say, you slept really badly.
Speaker A:And I'd Be, oh, I am tired actually, now that I think about it.
Speaker A:And it was like affecting my.
Speaker A:And I was like, what is going on?
Speaker A:So I've stopped that.
Speaker A:And I feel so much better for that because I'm like, you know, if you slept well or if you've not slept well, you know, if what you ate last week has had a negative effect on you and you've put a bit of weight on and the super salty junk food you had is dehydrated you and you've woken up like, you know these things and it feels like we've just gone away from that.
Speaker A:And like you say the basics, we're trusting technology with our actual lives.
Speaker B:Yeah, it, again, it's, we don't, we don't trust our instincts anymore.
Speaker B:And talking about AI, you know, artificial intelligence, it's not intelligent.
Speaker B:And again, if you think about CHAT GPT, it's a language model, so you're asking it health advice now.
Speaker B:If you ask ChatGPT a question and I've urge your viewers to do that and then say, no, you're wrong, see what it comes back with.
Speaker B:It's a language model.
Speaker B:It, it's, it.
Speaker B:I put some of these bloods in the other day as an experiment and we kept doubling down, doubling down, doubling down.
Speaker B:I said, right, are you, how confident are you?
Speaker B:Give me a percentage.
Speaker B:And chat GPT said 95.
Speaker B:And I could see how it, how it was working and the rationale, the path, it was going down again following an algorithm.
Speaker B:And, you know, I've done this for 10 years.
Speaker B:I'm pretty, pretty okay with knowledge base when it comes to hormones.
Speaker B:And I said, well, I'm 95% confident you're wrong.
Speaker B:I said, oh, yes, I am wrong.
Speaker B:Yeah, come on.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, it's, it's scary.
Speaker B:We're becoming less reliant on this, more reliant on technology.
Speaker B:Yeah, we're dumbing down consciousness.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, the one that I think you'll remember I posted on Instagram during that craze of everyone was going on ChatGPT and saying, make me an AI avatar of me and what I do based on everything that it knows about you.
Speaker A:And I, I use it a little bit for like podcast stuff.
Speaker A:It's very helpful for the research side of things and to collate everything in one area.
Speaker A:But it, it had known me enough to know that I wasn't a woman and it still made me a woman in that photo.
Speaker A:And then I said, you know, I'm a man.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And they went, oh, yes, of course.
Speaker A:And it's like, it's just a wake up call of like, we're trusting this thing.
Speaker A:Just such important stuff.
Speaker A:And it's, it's nowhere near advanced enough and probably never will be because it won't understand the human condition, the human.
Speaker B:It might do at some stage.
Speaker B:AI is fascinating.
Speaker B:It 100% can be used as a tool to help facilitate what you want it to be used as.
Speaker B:As long as you critically appraise the information, it's just put out.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker B:It's making thick people look really thick.
Speaker B:It is, but because they're, because they're trusting it and they're doubling down on the information and you're reading an email going, geez, you know, at least change the font, you can spot it, get rid of the height, the long hyphens.
Speaker B:It starts off in the same way.
Speaker B:It's really cringy.
Speaker B:Just think for your sounds, guys.
Speaker A:I get emails every week from people who want to go and be on the podcast.
Speaker A:And you can just tell it's an AI thing, they've put something into it and it goes, I loved your recent episode with blah, blah, blah.
Speaker A:I love that you touched on this, this and this.
Speaker A:And it's like, it's always a list and there's these certain things and all these emails come through in exactly the same format.
Speaker A:It's like three paragraphs, all starts and ends the same.
Speaker A:And it is, it's sad because immediately I'm like, no, there's no chance.
Speaker B:I've got a patient I'm not going to name, obviously, who puts all of his protocols into chat GPT and then suggests to me what he, what he should do based on his ChatGPT report.
Speaker A:How'd you deal with that?
Speaker B:I just say no, no, no.
Speaker A:How dare you, how dare you bring that into my office.
Speaker B:I say no and explain why and, and I, I can, I can break it down as, into the reasons why so that if, if you still say you want to do that, you're under, you're under the wrong clinic.
Speaker B:It's, it's, it's scary.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I suppose another thing that is affecting people's health that we maybe don't talk enough about is just modern life.
Speaker A:It's the, the comfort of what we do day to day.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, we're not, we're no longer surviving, are.
Speaker B:We've reached that utopia.
Speaker B:Whereas every other animals in this kingdom survives.
Speaker B:It has to survive.
Speaker B:So again, it lives by its instincts.
Speaker B:But we've reached this place of safety, but we still have all Those survival instincts sat there and they culminate and manifest in negative ways because we've already reached the destination and we were never supposed to reach the destination.
Speaker B:So, yeah, we need to get back to nature.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Simple as that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I suppose there's people listening who will be in very deep in the city and they might not have what you would consider nature.
Speaker A:Sorry, nature close by.
Speaker A:But even just go into a park, their nearest park, and being on the grass and just lay there, look at the sky, hear the trees rustle.
Speaker A:It's like forest bathing is a thing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You go in.
Speaker B:It's in Japan, isn't it?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You just sit.
Speaker B:DOCTOR PRESCRIBES walk into the forest.
Speaker A:Is that an actual prescription?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's good, yeah.
Speaker B:Well, it's cool as that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It comes out of the philosophy there as well, doesn't it?
Speaker A:And it's that idea of you're just sitting in nature and being present.
Speaker A:There's no phone, there's nothing else.
Speaker A:You're not listening to music.
Speaker A:Just sit there, close your eyes and you can do that in a park.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Without the distractions of modern life, it's difficult for a lot of people.
Speaker B:So then it's really, again, fun.
Speaker B:There's little things that you could do but just.
Speaker B:Just understanding your physiology.
Speaker B:So this is what I bang on about all the time.
Speaker B:So it's kind of like, you know, if you understand your physiology, then that will improve your psychology.
Speaker B:And there's a bi directional relationship between physiology and psychology.
Speaker B:But at your core you are an animal that should be surviving.
Speaker B:The psychology is.
Speaker B:Is paradoxically all that matters, even though physiology is more important, which is the ultimate paradox.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Something I've done to try and look after myself and slow my own life down, I suppose, and be more present and get into nature more where I can.
Speaker A:I've just moved out closer to more nature, which is good.
Speaker A:But before I'd journeys where I would usually maybe go by bike or car maybe, or bus, I'm just walking them.
Speaker A:It just slows you down because you get caught up in that.
Speaker A:What we were speaking about earlier is that constant.
Speaker A:Right, let's rush, rush, rush.
Speaker A:Where am I going next?
Speaker A:What's my next meeting?
Speaker A:What's my next thing I have to be at?
Speaker A:And just by walking something, you may be usually like if you walk for half an hour rather than jump on a bus that takes five, 10 minutes, you just get that extra bit of space yourself.
Speaker A:And if you can do it without anything in your ears, even if you are walking through the city, People who work in the city.
Speaker A:And if you walk between your meetings and stuff, it's just a way to slow down and reset your mind.
Speaker A:Doesn't necessarily have to be in the trees in that moment.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I walk my ships every morning, obviously.
Speaker B:And I'm always amazed at the school.
Speaker B:Kids walking to school, all with their heads in their face.
Speaker A:In a group of kids as well.
Speaker B:I'm walking towards you with two big German shepherds.
Speaker B:You know, I could be a threat.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'm not.
Speaker B:Let's stop here.
Speaker B:But I could be a threat.
Speaker B:And they're absolutely unaware of their surroundings.
Speaker B:They're so immersed in that stupid phone that provides them with no valuable information.
Speaker B:As you say, feel.
Speaker B:Feel the cold, feel the wind.
Speaker B:Listen.
Speaker B:Listen to the rustling of the leaves.
Speaker B:Be present.
Speaker B:No, this is a really amusing video on TikTok.
Speaker A:They could be watching a clip from this episode.
Speaker A:So that'd be the only reason, but it'd be okay.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:No, I totally get it.
Speaker A:And it's that.
Speaker A:That awareness of the surroundings and just communication again.
Speaker A:Like you see them walking, impacts of 3, 4, however many, and they're all on their phone.
Speaker B:Like they're.
Speaker A:They're together but they're not together.
Speaker A:It's like.
Speaker A:It's like.
Speaker A:It's weird.
Speaker B:It's like when you go to a restaurant, isn't it?
Speaker B:And the whole family's on.
Speaker B:On.
Speaker B:On their own phones.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:No one's talking to each other.
Speaker B:Bizarre.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Surely you go out, enjoy an experience together.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Hey, it's not our lives.
Speaker B:No, it's not lead by example.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:We can only control what we can control.
Speaker A:Rob.
Speaker A:I think it's a really nice place to leave it today.
Speaker A:And as you may remember from last time, the way I like to end my episodes is to ask my guest to leave a question for the listener to go away and start a conversation with someone in their own life.
Speaker A:Or maybe a stranger.
Speaker A:Maybe they are forest bathing and there's a stranger near them.
Speaker A:They just go and have a chat.
Speaker A:What question would you give them to start that conversation?
Speaker B:What's holding you back?
Speaker B:What's stopping you from taking that necessary next step to be a better version of yourself?
Speaker B:Doesn't have to be big, doesn't have to be grandiose, but what is it?
Speaker B:Address it so that you're controlling your controllables so that you can cope with the chaos of the world.
Speaker A:Yeah, very nice, Rob.
Speaker A:If people want to keep up to say what you're doing, find you listen to more of your naughty YouTube video talks to the camera we were talking about earlier.
Speaker A:Where can they do that?
Speaker B:YouTube Dr. Robert Stevens how we We have launched a more professional the men's Health Clinic YouTube video, a channel with some more professional content, and obviously Instagram Dr. Robert Stevens the Men's Health Clinic the usual things.
Speaker A:The usual things.
Speaker A:I'll link it all below so anyone listening can just scroll down and click on the links.
Speaker A:But from me to the listener, if you have enjoyed this episode, please do share it with someone who you think would find some value from it.
Speaker A:If you haven't already, please do subscribe or follow wherever you're listening or watching.
Speaker A:It really helps the show grow.
Speaker A:But lastly, from me, thank you for listening, stay curious and I will see you in the next one.
